Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

@Theo
Dark Minions: Exhalation of Decay
C2 Hazard: Short-event

Playable on an Undead hazard creature in your discard pile. If target Undead can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attacks prowess is modified by -1. "...wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light the illuminated nothing."-LotRIV
Dark Minions: In Great Wrath
U2 Hazard: Short-event

Playable on a Nazgûl in your discard pile that could immediately attack. The Nazgûl attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) with +2 prowess and -1 body. "...the noise of hoofs broke out, and gathering to a gallop, went hammering away into the darkness."-LotRI
Compare the two cards.

Exhalation of Decay says "bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit)."
In Great Wrath says "The Nazgûl attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) with +2 prowess and -1 body."

Right. In Great Wrath does not say anything about playing the Nazgûl. The Nazgûl attacks immediately, but is it a reason to say that the Nazgûl is not played? If so then what is a sense of phrase "(not counting against the hazard limit)"? Mistake?
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Theo »

I read neither of those as "the creature is played". In both cases, the creature must be brought into play for the creature to attack.

I would say that "(not counting against the hazard limit)" is an additional clarification that supports the creature not being played.

Both of these cards also stipulate that the creature they target must be able to attack. If the creature was actually played (even if it didn't count against the hazard limit), then it would need to be keyed, and the keying would obviate any need for the card text to specify that the creature must be able to attack. The requirement that the creature can attack is not in parentheticals, and so isn't as much a candidate in my mind for being simply a clarification.
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Determining playability of creatures for BOCH and FSF necessarily requires the creature to be keyed.
I think determining whether a creature is "playable" only requires that the creature could be keyed. That is, only the possibility of one or more valid keyings needs to be established; no actual keying need be chosen.

The main topic cards only require such a determination that the creature is "playable"; the rules on keying are in the "Playing and Drawing Cards" section of the rules, and by default needn't apply to creatures cards not being played.
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Against the Shadow: Hoard Well-searched
C2 Resource: Short-event

Scout only. Playable during the site phase on a company with a scout at a tapped site that contains a hoard. A minor or major item may be played. "...but always he searched from side to side for something which he could not find." -Hob
I think that the "minor or major item" may be played in result of Hoard Well-searched, not in other (next or inner) chain of effects. Nonetheless the "minor or major item" may be played under altered conditions - that specified by Hoard Well-searched; site must be tapped, not untapped, "minor or major item" does not must be playable at the site.

Exhalation of Decay and In Great Wrath specify some conditions under which a creature attacks. They are identical with current playability conditions of the creatures, but different could be specified as well.
Theo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:17 am
Both of these cards also stipulate that the creature they target must be able to attack. If the creature was actually played (even if it didn't count against the hazard limit), then it would need to be keyed, and the keying would obviate any need for the card text to specify that the creature must be able to attack.
Did you forgot the Paths of the Dead?
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:31 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Determining playability of creatures for BOCH and FSF necessarily requires the creature to be keyed.
I think determining whether a creature is "playable" only requires that the creature could be keyed. That is, only the possibility of one or more valid keyings needs to be established; no actual keying need be chosen.

The main topic cards only require such a determination that the creature is "playable"; the rules on keying are in the "Playing and Drawing Cards" section of the rules, and by default needn't apply to creatures cards not being played.
The creature is not playable if it has not been keyed because it cannot be played without being keyed.

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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

The proposal has been modified.
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:53 am
Proposed clarification:

"If at the start of M/H phase a creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall could be played under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition. The attack(s) from the creature is (are) then treated as though the creature was played under chosen condition.
...
hazard player chooses the condition when the action resolves."
Not only is the proposal not needed, it contradicts the rules on playing creatures and the proposal contradicts itsself.

There is no possibility for the creature to be "treated as though the creature was played under chosen condition" if the "hazard player chooses the condition when the action resolves," as opposed to when the attack is declared.

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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:45 pm
There is no possibility for the creature to be "treated as though the creature was played under chosen condition" if the "hazard player chooses the condition when the action resolves," as opposed to when the attack is declared.
Exhalation of Decay checks only whether the Undead in discard pile can attack. The Undead could be played for multiple reasons; type of company's new site matches, region symbols in company's site path match, other condition that allow for playing the Undead against the company exists.

Exhalation of Decay will resolve if at least one of such condition will exist at resolution, even if multiple and/or other conditions was present at declaration.

Undead is played as part of main effect of Exhalation of Decay, not in separate chain of effects, and nothing can fizzle it at this point.
Still how the Undead is considered keyed should be determined, because other effects in play depend on such information.
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:17 am
I read neither of those as "the creature is played". In both cases, the creature must be brought into play for the creature to attack.

I would say that "(not counting against the hazard limit)" is an additional clarification that supports the creature not being played.

Both of these cards also stipulate that the creature they target must be able to attack. If the creature was actually played (even if it didn't count against the hazard limit), then it would need to be keyed, and the keying would obviate any need for the card text to specify that the creature must be able to attack. The requirement that the creature can attack is not in parentheticals, and so isn't as much a candidate in my mind for being simply a clarification.
If I understand you, then Undead attacking a minion company in result of Exhalation of Decay always attacks as non-detainment, even if Exhalation of Decay could be played (and resolves) only thanks to fact that the company moves to Dark Hold.
Right?
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Try to explain why a requirement for playing a card could be ignored when determining whether that card is playable.

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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:48 pm
Try to explain why a requirement for playing a card could be ignored when determining whether that card is playable.
The creature played in result of Exhalation of Decay is played just in result of Exhalation of Decay.
Exhalation of Decay checks whether any of possible playability conditions exist. Creature is played in result of Exhalation of Decay.
Not in separate chain of effects where it should be checked both at declaration and at resolution whether and how the creature can be/is keyed (or otherwise playable).

In other words, playability conditions of Exhalation of Decay replace the playability conditions of Undead.

Scenario:
Doors of Night is in play. Nature's Revenge is on Bree.
A company is moving from The White Towers to Bree,

Exhalation of Decay is played on Stirring Bones in discard pile.
In response Marvels Told is played on Nature's Revenge.
In response Chocking Shadows is played on wilderness in company's path, causing treating it as shadow land.

When it comes to resolving the Exhalation of Decay it turns out that the card is able to resolve (does not fizzle); Stirring Bones is able to attack albeit for other reasons than at declaration.

I must admit that Theo's interpretation can work too. Creature is brought into play without being keyed to anything.
With obvious differences (and consequences) against my interpretation.
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

...you didn't explain "why"...
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:17 pm
In other words, playability conditions of Exhalation of Decay replace the playability conditions of Undead.
This is incorrect and misleading, though not entirely off base. Exhalation of Decay does not "replace" the playability conditions. There is no replacement of conditions for playing the Undead -- the Undead is played by EoD's effect without "replacement", but only if "target Undead can attack." That is, only if the Target undead is playable according to the normal requirements for playing that Undead, including the requirement to Key to one condition if multiple exist.

There is no suggestion in the rules that determining whether a card is "playable" is less restrictive than actually playing the card.

It is well established that when items and other resources are played by a card effect, all of the requirements of playing such cards must still be met (unless otherwise indicated).

If playing a creature (eg it attacks and is brought into play) by a card effect was supposed to work different from normal play of the creature, there would be some rule or ruling saying so. But there isn't.

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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:32 pm
If playing a creature (eg it attacks and is brought into play) by a card effect was supposed to work different from normal play of the creature, there would be some rule or ruling saying so. But there isn't.
Then what to expect from Paths of the Dead?
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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:49 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:32 pm
If playing a creature (eg it attacks and is brought into play) by a card effect was supposed to work different from normal play of the creature, there would be some rule or ruling saying so. But there isn't.
Then what to expect from Paths of the Dead?
You're not reading every word in the rules. You're glossing over it.

"You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an Attack can only occur if:
  • ...
  • ...
  • ...
  • ...
If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these conditions that the attack is 'keyed to.'"

Paths of the Dead states "any Undead may be played on the company." Since attacks from creatures may only happen according to the rule above, this effect of Paths of the Dead provides a condition upon which creatures may be played. It is not a separate effect. It is subject to the rules. This is reiterated in the rule "a hazard creature may only be played against a company is the creature is "keyed to" the company's site or site path."

A creature card with the Undead keywork satisfies this condition. If that creature card also satisfies another condition, you must choose which condition is used. Likely the hazard player will choose the condition provided by Paths of the Dead since it cannot be negated.

----------

The only way for the rules to be consistent is to actually read the words used and give them their proper weight. "Only" means exclusively, nothing else. It is not merely an allowance. There is NO OTHER way to play a creature besides the rules given. This is not merely an allowance for playing a creature according to some conditions. It is a hard restriction. "Must" means that something should necessarily be done. Keying MUST be done.

A restriction in the rules always applies unless there is specific card text to overrule it. An allowance in the rules based on some set of conditions does not prevent a different allowance based on a different set of conditions. This is how the game works. It's how the rules were written and it's how the rulings were made.

Failure to recognize this is why so many of CoE Rulings are wrong and inconsistent, and why so many theories and proposals on the forum here are wrong and inconsistent.

There is nothing in Exhalation of Decay's card text to suggest that it completely overrides the rules on playing creatures rather than merely adding a condition to the list of possible play conditions to be satisfied. There is also nothing in Bring Our Curses Home, Foes Shall Fall, Paths of the Dead, etc. that indicate that the requirements on playing creatures in the rules do not have to be met.

If these cards were to allow the play of creatures without the creatures being keyed, the card text would need to specifically mention keying.

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Re: Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Out of the Black Sky is also affected by this proposal.
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