Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Konrad Klar
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Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated
otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any
cards placed off to the side under it are discarded.
I propose the following errata:

"Cards placed off to the side are always in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated
otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any
cards placed off to the side under it are discarded."

Change in bold.

Rationale:
" if it is not there it is not there"
Dark Minions: Great Secrets Buried There

Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U2

Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable if opponent has at least ten cards in his play deck. Opponent reveals the top ten card of his play deck to himself. If one is available, opponent must choose a non-special, non-hoard item from the revealed cards to place off to the side under this card (item does not give Marshaling points and is considered out of play). If none are available, opponent must show you the cards he revealed to himself. Opponent shuffles all remaining revealed cards into his play deck. Opponent may play this item as though it were in his hand at any Under-deeps site. Alternatively, you may play this card as a resource on yourself if you have at least ten cards in your play deck. In this case, you and your opponent reverse roles.


Great Secrets Buried There does not specify any exception from "and is considered out of play". Therefore it supersedes "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." completely.
I think that the phrase "and is considered out of play" has a purpose. The purpose is not an allowing for second copy/manifestation of an item in play. The purpose is a removing the effects on play that the item would have otherwise.

For example, if Palantír of Amon Sûl would be placed off to the side, without this phrase, its effect could be duplicated by Palantír of Osgiliath.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:37 pm Great Secrets Buried There does not specify any exception from "and is considered out of play". Therefore it supersedes "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." completely.
Yes, it would... except for the clarification from the Designers on Great Secrets Buried There. So then it doesn't.

But you have to find it.

So then this proposal is not needed.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Great Secrets Buried There is only card I know that exposes the problem.
Problem, as I see it, is from the rule side, not from the card side.

"Cards placed off to the side are always in play for the purposes of uniqueness." would allow the cards placed “off to the side” under effect like "is considered out of play" to preserve their uniqueness.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

The proposal is incongruent with the game because cards can override the rules. And the proposal is unneeded.

There are a few instances of the uniqueness rules being changed by card effects. There's no reason not to allow similar effects.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:28 pm There are a few instances of the uniqueness rules being changed by card effects. There's no reason not to allow similar effects.
Right.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:28 pm The proposal is incongruent with the game because cards can override the rules. And the proposal is unneeded.
Cards can override rules. So "and is considered out of play" can override "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."

OK?

BTW. What is a purpose of "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." in your opinion?
Would the unique items placed off to the side with Sacrifice of Form not count as unique without the rule?
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

My point is that the proposal has no impact on the game at all because GSBT has its own clarification.

Sacrifice of Form says exactly how the items are handled.

There is no issue here.

It would help to look up the rulings on a card before posting about it.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

My point is that planned purpose of "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." is that the the unique card placed of to the side" are always unique even if text of host states "and is considered out of play".
Due to lack of "always" the "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." does not serve the purpose.
"and is considered out of play" in text of a card can override "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
"Cards placed off to the side are always in play for the purposes of uniqueness." could be overridden too, but with more of effort. E.g. by "and is considered out of play also for purposes of uniqueness".
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:24 pm It would help to look up the rulings on a card before posting about it.
Not necessarily.
Some ruling may say that a card does work in some way regardless of reasons for which the card cannot work in such way.

BTW. name of this thread is:

Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

because it is exact name of chapter containing the phrase "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
The chapter of this name appears in three booklets.
The proposal itself is an errata.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:19 am My point is that planned purpose of "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." is that the the unique card placed of to the side" are always unique even if text of host states "and is considered out of play".
You aren't the one to be dictating the intention of the Designers because you often don't even bother to learn what it is and when you do find out you often dismiss it.

Regardless, there is no stated intention from the Designers that a card effect can never override the uniqueness of cards off to the side.

There is no reason for the proposal.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:00 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:37 pm Great Secrets Buried There does not specify any exception from "and is considered out of play". Therefore it supersedes "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." completely.
Yes, it would... except for the clarification from the Designers on Great Secrets Buried There. So then it doesn't.

But you have to find it.

So then this proposal is not needed.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:45 pm Regardless, there is no stated intention from the Designers that a card effect can never override the uniqueness of cards off to the side.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:06 pm BTW. What is a purpose of "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." in your opinion?
You did not answer that.

For now it seems for me that the only purpose of the phrase is to being overridden by text of Great Secrets Buried There.
Otherwise it is purposeless.

I have a little hope that you can give any answer other than a redirection to Designers.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:37 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:06 pm BTW. What is a purpose of "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." in your opinion?
You did not answer that.

For now it seems for me that the only purpose of the phrase is to being overridden by text of Great Secrets Buried There.
Otherwise it is purposeless.

I have a little hope that you can give any answer other than a redirection to Designers.
Maybe before I state my own opinion, let's go back to the fact that you are discussing an outdated version of the Off to the Side rules.

This is a constant problem with your proposals. You fail to recognize the most recent rulings and you fail to address the most recent versions of the rules and the cards. This failure explains many of the misunderstandings. Many of the rules changed over time and much of the confusion (from others as well) comes from failing to recognize this. You can't just read MELE and the CRF and think that it contains everything, because it doesn't. You have to read all of the rules, follow all of the ruling, and put them together.

---------

Original rules:
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:37 pm
Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated
otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any
cards placed off to the side under it are discarded.
Most recent rules:
Cards placed off to the side are only in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards played off to the side under it are discarded.
The proposal is a failure, at least because it is not based on the most recent version of the rules. The rationale for the proposal is also a failure because it does not consider the clarification to Great Secrets Buried There:
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:37 pm Great Secrets Buried There does not specify any exception from "and is considered out of play". Therefore it supersedes "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness." completely.
Except for:
Image
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:39 pm Most recent rules:

Cards placed off to the side are only in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards played off to the side under it are discarded.
What is the source of the text?
(and what would be the purpose of "and is considered out of play" in text of Great Secrets Buried There, if an item placed with the card would be in play for purposes of uniqueness anyway?)
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:23 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:39 pm Most recent rules:

Cards placed off to the side are only in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards played off to the side under it are discarded.
What is the source of the text?
I'll give you some time to find it on your own. It'll be more rewarding. You got this!

I'll give you one hint. The section in the rules is titled: Placement of cards "off to the side."
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:23 pm (and what would be the purpose of "and is considered out of play" in text of Great Secrets Buried There, if an item placed with the card would be in play for purposes of uniqueness anyway?)
This would be clear if you reviewed the history of the game.
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Enlighten me, please.
What is the source of the text:
Cards placed off to the side are only in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards played off to the side under it are discarded.
?
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Re: Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

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