Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

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CDavis7M
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panotxa wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:16 amThe lack of definition of what “to affect” means in the rulebook (at least I didn’t manage to find it) and the way the term “affect” pops up after the first sentence, makes me think that affect is, when not talking about an entire class of cards, “to be playable on or with a character or a certain entity”…
But the effect of Foolish Words that modifies riddles and influence attempts is a non-targeted effect that affects an entire class of cards (cards that create riddles and influence attempts). Foolish words doesn't affect the character directly, it affects a class of rolls made by the character.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:21 am I think that even mere being on X affects the X.
I disagree. There is a difference between "targeting" and "affecting."
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:21 am If Foolish Words does not affect a target character,then what about Endless Whispers?
... No one is saying that Foolish Words does not "target" a character. My position is that Foolish Words does not "affect" the character it targets -- Foolish Words only affects certain rolls made by the character. Endless Whispers is similar in that it has no direct effect on the character card -- it only affects effects that would untap the character. Endless Whispers should probably also have an effect that taps the character upon resolution but it doesn't.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:32 pmAny card that is placed on-guard (which includes Foolish Words), would reasonably need a set of rules to govern that mechanic. The vagueness you are attributing to CRF 15 not mentioning a specific line of text being replaced is because there is no specific line of text being replaced, but a change to the broader ruleset.
I just look for consistency. In my interpretation of the rules all of the cards work. In other interpretations of the rules some of the cards don't work.

Cards that have their own text allowing them to be revealed on guard do not need to use the on-guard rules in the rulesbook because that's what their card text is for. Clarifications to revealing cards on-guard still apply to those cards (Foolish Words, etc) because they are revealed on guard. Errata to the rulesbook defining which cards can be revealed on guard or not does not apply (to Foolish Words, etc) because those cards are not revealed according to the rulesbook, they are revealed according to their card text.

The rule "all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed" MUST NOT apply to cards that are revealed by their own card text (like Foolish Words) otherwise many of them would not actually work. Half an Eye Open would not work because the target attempt did not exist in the M/H phase. Searching Eye would not work because the target card did not exist in the M/H phase. This rule does not apply to Foolish Words and any other cards that are can be revealed on guard by their own card text.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:00 pm Konrad Klar wrote: ↑24 Mar 2022, 12:21
I think that even mere being on X affects the X.
I disagree. There is a difference between "targeting" and "affecting."
As though someone (me?) would negate the difference.

A character immeditely aquires some CPs (due to corruption card played on him) that not necessarily have additional effect on him -there is no cc declared at this point.
A character immeditely aquires some inabilities (Endless Whispers), or maluses to some activities (Foolish Words/Something Else at Work) that not necessarily have additional effect on him - no untap/heal action is declared, no ring test is declared, the charactes is not under control of FW and no inluence check is declared.
Ops. Foolish Words has special revealing conditions.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:38 pm A character immeditely aquires some CPs (due to corruption card played on him) that not necessarily have additional effect on him -there is no cc declared at this point.
When a corruption card is played on a character it has the immediate effect of increasing that character's corruption point total.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:38 pmA character immeditely aquires some inabilities (Endless Whispers), or maluses to some activities (Foolish Words/Something Else at Work) that not necessarily have additional effect on him
These are not abilities of the character. They are just effects in play.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:40 pm These are not abilities of the character. They are just effects in play.
These are inabilities.
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