Potential Carambor Fix

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

The question is not one of dominance -- if it won 100% of the time it would already have been nerfed; no CoE has been that lethargic. ;)

The question is one of an extremely negative play experience when it does work -- showing up at a tournament to play and then not getting to play simply because the other person goes first isn't going to create a wellspring of camaraderie and harmonious feeling.

Regardless of whether one feels Carambor needs fixing, though, the issue of short event duration brought up by Theo is a real one. We've been assuming these events last until the end of the turn, or even throughout the entirety of the movement/hazard phase, but that's not necessarily correct.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

And I'd also have a question about story sense; MECCG isn't just a set of arbitrary interactions between components. Unless Carambor is a time manipulating sorcerer, I don't like the implication of being able to make the day longer than it is (and for just that party). Given that the card doesn't have the ability to use any sort of magics (nor do I recall any of that sort in the lore), I'm skeptical of that possibility.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Thematic considerations are a slippery slope for rules adjudication.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
rezwits
Council Member
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Theo wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am Carambor's ability should be interpreted as only being usable at the end of a company's "normal" movement hazard phase---the only movement hazard phase for that company in the rulebooks. It refers to a singular "phase" rather than "phases", and in the rules as written up to that point on the card there is only the one M/H phase per turn to refer to, so the ability must refer to (just) that phase. This interpretation reveals that the proposed "once per turn" change would actually result in an increase in power, in that a party could benefit from both Carambor's ability and e.g. Bridge on the same turn, whereas currently they couldn't.
I think the only problem with that kind of ruling, is that it would restrict the movement of Ringwraith Attack Decks even more. Not allowing them to Forced March - Forced March - Leg It Double Quick, example...

Which my goodness CvCC RW decks need in my eyes...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I think I understand the "Carambor Machine" but I'm not sure why it is only a FW strategy. Is it because a FW can establish additional FW Havens to make movement safe?

I can see in the original wording of Guarded Haven (removing regions from sitepath) would have allowed for the Machine. But wasn't that language removed?

I'm not interested in playing The Machine but just trying to understand how it works.

EDIT: I have been told that the solution lies in limiting hazards that can be played (eg spying out the land). Otherwise you should be able to tap/wound Carambor. And I guess it can't be done by RW for the lack untapping effects.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

The Carambor Machine actually doesn't work when carefully reading the card effects and understanding how and when they would be declared.

I nominate Miguel to explain why.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

miguel wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:25 pm The only card you need to draw for the machine is Washed and Refreshed or Healing of Nimrodel, then Carambor can keep running between Weathertop [-me_ha-] (Hidden Havened at draft) and The White Towers [-me_ha-] via Arthedain [-me_wi-] . The other cards mentioned above are just gravy; they help but are certainly not necessary for the machine to work.

Once the machine is up and running, the moves are relatively safe. Carambor is teamed up with a magic user, so his company gets benefits such as 20x Bitter Cold to help with the final move(s)... :lol:
You could start by explaining why Healing of Nimrodel (and Hall of Fire) doesn't actually work at all.

Then you could explain how Spying Out The Land doesn't do what people think it does.
User avatar
miguel
Ex NetRep
Posts: 705
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:27 am The Carambor Machine actually doesn't work when carefully reading the card effects and understanding how and when they would be declared.

I nominate Miguel to explain why.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:27 am You could start by explaining why Healing of Nimrodel (and Hall of Fire) doesn't actually work at all.

Then you could explain how Spying Out The Land doesn't do what people think it does.
Eh? You want me to tell you what I think about why you think this deck doesn't work? Really? Yeah, seems like a perfectly good use of my time...
miguel's transatlantic mind reading abilities on CDavis7M wrote: Healing of Nimrodel: The healing/untapping wouldn't happen until the end of all movement/hazard phases, and not the company's individual movement/hazard phases.

Spying Out The Land: The restriction on playing hazards would apply only to the company's first movement/hazard phase, not all of them.
How many guesses do I get? :roll:
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I was just giving you the opportunity to cite the rules and the cards, and then explain how the cards in the Carambor Machine worked with respect to the rules, and in doing so explain why they don't work. But that's fair if you don't want to. I'll do it myself.
miguel wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:58 am miguel's transatlantic mind reading abilities on CDavis7M wrote:
Healing of Nimrodel: The healing/untapping wouldn't happen until the end of all movement/hazard phases, and not the company's individual movement/hazard phases.
There is no "player's Movement/Hazard" phase encompassing each company's M/H phase as suggested in other posts here. This has been explicitly decried by ICE. Only a player's company's have Movement/Hazard phases:
ICE Digest 88 wrote:No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase." Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn.
. . .
The company is not at the site until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there is no umbrella site phase.
The only thing happening at the End of All M/H phases is joining companies.

------------
miguel wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:58 am miguel's transatlantic mind reading abilities on CDavis7M wrote:
Spying Out The Land: The restriction on playing hazards would apply only to the company's first movement/hazard phase, not all of them.
I know of no such restriction in the rules. The only card with a similar restriction is Master of Esgaroth because it explicitly says that the company "can take a second movement/hazard phase."
Last edited by CDavis7M on Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

What the Carambor Machine is and Why it Doesn't Work

Summary: Spying out the Land actually lets your opponent play new/different hazards every subsequent movement/hazard phase. And Healing of Nimrodel and Hall of Fire don't work to untap Carambor. Washed and Refreshed does work but your opponent can play hazards every M/H phase to try to tap or wound Carambor. Plus, the opponent can sideboard to get Blind to the West in their hand and a ton of great hazards into their deck to stop the Carambor Machine at least shortly after the first time that their deck exhausts. Blind to the West will prevent the Machine from starting up again.

How the Carambor Machine is supposed to work:
  • Minion character Carambor can tap at the end of the Movement/Hazard phase to move to an additional site, taking another M/H phase.
  • Hero resources have effects to untap characters each M/H phase, such as Washed and Refreshed, Healing of Nimrodel, and Hall of Fire.
  • Minion resource Spying Out the Land requires the hazard player to show their hazards in the organization and prevents them from playing any other hazards. This effect reapplies when Carambor moves again.
  • A Fallen Wizard player can play Carambor and all of these Hero and Minion Resources. The Carambor Machine cannot be achieved by Wizard or Ringwraith players.
  • Carambor can move an infinite number of times because he will always be untapped by the hero untapping resources so that he can move again and Spying Out the Land will prevent any hazards from being played to tap him.
  • You can exhaust the play decks twice using Carambor's infinite movement such that you can "Call The Council" at the end of your first turn (with some luck in card draws), ending the game after opponent takes his first (or second) turn.
  • You can move from Hidden Haven on Weathertop in Arthedain to The White Towers wizardhaven in Arthedain to limit the playability of any hazards your opponent had in their opening hand.
  • You can start with Great Patron to get 7 Character MP and then play characters and allies and other easy MP since you can draw your entire deck.
  • Your hand is stacked full of good resources and hazards so that you will be ahead of your opponent in MP and you also have the hazards necessary to stop them from getting enough MP.
  • You will double MP categories since your opponent has no MP, giving you that sweet sweet 6-0 win.
Why the Carambor Machine doesn't work (rules explanation below):
  • Spying Out the Land actually lets your opponent reveal new/different hazards EACH movement/hazard phase. It does NOT limit your opponent to only playing those hazards revealed back in the organization phase (per CRF on "Movement" and "Choosing a New Site").
  • Healing of Nimrodel and Hall of Fire don't work because (A) it is too late for Carambor to tap after these effects have untapped Carambor due to the timing rules on currently resolving chains of effects and (B) these effects actually invalidate the conditions for Carambor taking an additional M/H phase per Annotation 5.
  • While Washed and Refreshed does untap Carambor, it does so at the beginning of the M/H phase. And with proper application of Spying Out the Land's effects, your opponent will have new hazards every M/H phase that they can use to tap or wound Carambor. And your opponent can save up a ton of hazards and drop them all at once. However, Spying Out the Land still prevents the hazard player from playing hazards that they drew for that current M/H phase.
  • Furthermore, Washed and Refreshed is the only workable untapper so it is even more difficult to get "The Machine" running with just 2 copies of that card and 2 copies of Spying Out the Land.
  • Note that the untapping effect of Washed and Refreshed only works "when the company's new site is revealed." This means that Carambor and other characters would NOT untap when moving to a face-up site, such as Hidden Haven Weathertop where another character sitting.
  • Also, eliminating the Spirit-magic character that played Spying Out the Land will cancel the effects of Spying Out the Land per the CRF on "Movement" since the conditions ("the [spirit-magic character's] company") are no longer met.
  • Your opponent can sideboard hazards with Nazgul or Outpost to put 2-3 Blind to the West in their hand, and then put Nature's Revenge, Cave Drake, Adunaphel, Lure of Nature, Scorba Ahunt, Neeker Breekers, Veils Flung Away, Enchanted Stream, etc, into their discard pile so that they are all there when the decks exhaust the first time. The Carambor Machine player only has a couple Crams/Pastes and two Hundred Butterflies, they can't stay untapped or unwounded forever.
  • If Carambor's company even makes it to the first exhausting of the play decks, he is not going to make it untapped much longer, and his company will stop moving.
  • Blind to the West will be in your opponent's hand to cancel Washed and Refreshed if you try to play again.
  • The Carambor Machine player is left with a company full of wounded or dead characters and an inefficient deck.
  • Even though Carambor can still be annoying, he could at best exhaust a deck once, not twice. Your opponent will still have most of a play deck to go through similar to a 1-deck game.
  • The Carambor Machine player likely looses. And hopefully they feel bad.
Explanation of how Spying Out the Land works under the rules:

People "know" that effects played during the Organization Phase carry over to subsequent Movement/Hazard phases. But I noticed that nowhere did anyone recite the text of the appropriate rules and the text of the cards when discussing the Carambor Machine.

The actual rules are:
CRF - Movement: If a company moves twice in one turn, resources played during the organization phase, like Secret Passage, are reapplied to the company at the beginning of each of their movement/hazard phases, if the conditions of the card are met.

CRF - Choosing a New Site: Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.
The first CRF statement on "Movement" governs Spying Out the Land. Accordingly, when a company moves again using Carambor, the effect of Spying Out the Land is reapplied to the company. The EFFECT. Not just a portion of the resource's effect. The ENTIRE effect of the resource. For Spying Out the Land and other similar resources, the "effect" reapplied in subsequent M/H phases is the same "effect" of that resource when it originally resolved in its the chain of effects. The effect of Spying Out the Land is NOT: "only those hazards revealed [during the organization phase] can be played."

Instead, the entire effect of Spying Out the Land is:
"Opponent may reveal to you any hazards from his hand, and only those hazards can be played during the character company's movement/hazard phase. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a modified by -3."
How or why would only a portion of this effect apply to subsequent movement/hazard phases? That doesn't make sense looking at the rule and card text side by side. Instead the whole effect is reapplied. Therefore, at the start of the additional Movement/Hazard phases caused by Carambor, the Hazard player reveals any hazards from their hand and those newly revealed hazards can be played during that additional Movement/Hazard phase. The corruption check at -3 is also an effect of Spying Out the Land. Good luck with corruption.

Explanation of Healing of Nimrodel and Halls of Fire work under the rules:

Carambor's effect is "May tap at the end of his company's movement/hazard phase to allow it to move to an additional site on the same turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for his company. The new site path must contain at least one Wilderness."

Healing of Nimrodel's effect also happens "at the end of the movement/hazard phase": "If the company moves to another Haven this turn, at the end of the movement/hazard phase all wounded characters in the company heal (from wounded to untapped) and all tapped characters untap."

The problem is that tapping Carambor is an active condition for declaring his additional M/H phase effect per Annotation 5:
Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.
Therefore, Carambor must be tapped when declaring the End of the M/H phase effects BEFORE the untapping effects of Healing of Nimrodel can resolve. There is no time to untap Carambor after Healing of Nimrodel has resolved because it is no longer the "End of the Movement/Hazard phase." And if Carambor was untapped and able to tap to move again, Healing of Nimrodel would actually negate the movement by untapping Carambor for the reasons stated in Annotation 5. This is the same reason why characters tapping in support of Narya have their support negated (they must still be tapped at resolution but they were untapped in between). Hall of Fire's untapping effect happens "immediately following its movement/hazard phase" and so it doesn't work for similar reasons.

----------

So, Carambor can still be annoying, and you can still create a deck with Carambor to draw a lot of cards, but you can't actually exhaust a play deck twice to Call the Council with no hazard recourse by your opponent. You cannot use Carambor to win 6-0 against a player that has a basic sideboard.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Sat May 16, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

I didn't finish reading; sorry.
CRF wrote:... and depend on the site or site path of a moving company ...
Spying out the Land does not qualify. Its effect is not repeated. Since its effect cannot be concluded immediately, presumably its effect lasts until end of turn.

The other CRF quote might be generalization as you desired if one is willing to loosely interpret the parts you didn't underline ("like Secret Passage", "if the conditions of the card are met") as not indicating the restriction in the quote above.
Last edited by Theo on Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm There is no time to untap Carambor after Healing of Nimrodel has resolved because it is no longer the "End of the Movement/Hazard phase."
I suspected you might go there! I'm still waiting for you to present your evidence on the other thread:
Theo wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:35 am
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 am Are you ignoring that it is a reference to Annotation 9?
I'm not sure how I could be ignoring something that I literally don't see.
---

I do appreciate you resurrecting this thread though. This was one of my first threads on these forums as well, and it's been nagging at my memory to revisit with my own changes in interpretations since then.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:43 am I suspected you might go there! I'm still waiting for you to present your evidence on the other thread
There is no second "End" that can come after a first "End." This is the entire point of having a game mechanic for differentiating between things happening "during" a phase and things happening "at the end" of the phase. The other thread is discussing all phases. At least the End Movement/Hazard phase IS well defined. Unlike some phases, the Movement/Hazard phase is a strict procedure taken step by step:

Image
CRF wrote:
  • Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
  • Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
Hazards stop being played at Step (3). Step (4) occurs if a company is returned to origin. Step (5) is removing the site of origin. Step (6) is reconciling hand size. Steps (5) and (6) happen at the same time per the CRF. Steps (5) and (6) ARE the End of the M/H phase per Annotation 25a. There is nothing in the M/H phase procedure coming after the End at Steps (5) and (6). Since Healing of Nimrodel happens at the End, which is the same time that hand size is resolved, there is no possibility of declaring Carambor's movement effect in the chain of effects following resolution of Nimrodel's untapping since the following chain of effects would no longer be at the End of his company's M/H phase.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:35 am
CRF wrote:... and depend on the site or site path of a moving company ...
Spying out the Land does not qualify. Its effect is not repeated. Since its effect cannot be concluded immediately, presumably its effect lasts until end of turn.
I never said that Spying Out the Land qualifies as an effect that "depends on the site path of a moving company." I said:
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm The actual rules are:
CRF - Movement: If a company moves twice in one turn, resources played during the organization phase, like Secret Passage, are reapplied to the company at the beginning of each of their movement/hazard phases, if the conditions of the card are met.

CRF - Choosing a New Site: Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.
The first CRF statement on "Movement" governs Spying Out the Land.
----------
Theo wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:35 am The other CRF quote might be generalization as you desired if one is willing to loosely interpret the parts you didn't underline ("like Secret Passage", "if the conditions of the card are met") as not indicating the restriction in the quote above.
So your position is that neither of these CRF statements apply to Spying Out the Land, meaning that Spying Out the Land only works for the 1st M/H phase and not for any subsequent Movement/Hazard phases?
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:25 am So your position is that neither of these CRF statements apply to Spying Out the Land, meaning that Spying Out the Land only works for the 1st M/H phase and not for any subsequent Movement/Hazard phases?
Theo wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:35 am Since its effect cannot be concluded immediately, presumably its effect lasts until end of turn.
However I'm not sure if "the character [sic] company's movement/hazard phase" should be limited to one or if it could be any. Is a hypothetical (future) phase an entity (does it qualify as a target)? What the "the" meant to encapsulate the rest of the clause (vs. only the character)? Then I would think the scope is limited to only the first. Otherwise my personal inclination would be any qualifying phase until end of turn. But I have not yet "earnestly studied this matter", if you have insights.

I feel similarly uncertain if the character had Left Behind played on him... does only the original (if target), or only the new phase (rule mod / disallowed passive triggered on play attempt) benefit? I wouldn't think not both.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
Post Reply

Return to “CoE Rules & Errata Community Proposals”