Potential Carambor Fix

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CDavis7M
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So your argument is: "We should pretend that Spying Out the Land's effect lasts until the End of the Turn instead of just "the" M/H phase (so that it inadvertently prevents Dragons from being played by Rumor of Wealth), instead of recognizing that it is a resource played during the Organization phase that affects movement and applying the rule on resources played during the organization phase that affect movement."

Re Left Behind, the rules cover this.
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Theo
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No, that is not my argument. Spying Out the Land can't matter outside of a movement/hazard phase, as written on the card.

Re Left Behind: you're free to demonstrate; my guess is that you'll rely on errantly interpreting Spying Out the Land as creating an effect on a company, but I'm open-minded.
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miguel
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm How the Carambor Machine is supposed to work:
  • Hero resources have effects to untap characters each M/H phase, such as Washed and Refreshed, Healing of Nimrodel, and Hall of Fire.
  • You can exhaust the play decks twice using Carambor's infinite movement such that you can "Call The Council" at the end of your first turn (with some luck in card draws), ending the game after opponent takes his first (or second) turn.
I didn't notice anyone suggest using Hall of Fire..? It wouldn't work simply because a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. Also when you exhaust both play decks twice, the Council starts following the current turn, not after another turn by the opponent.

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm Why the Carambor Machine doesn't work (rules explanation below):
  • Your opponent can sideboard hazards with Nazgul or Outpost to put 2-3 Blind to the West in their hand, and then put Nature's Revenge, Cave Drake, Adunaphel, Lure of Nature, Scorba Ahunt, Neeker Breekers, Veils Flung Away, Enchanted Stream, etc, into their discard pile so that they are all there when the decks exhaust the first time. The Carambor Machine player only has a couple Crams/Pastes and two Hundred Butterflies, they can't stay untapped or unwounded forever.
  • If Carambor's company even makes it to the first exhausting of the play decks, he is not going to make it untapped much longer, and his company will stop moving.
  • Blind to the West will be in your opponent's hand to cancel Washed and Refreshed if you try to play again.
  • The Carambor Machine player is left with a company full of wounded or dead characters and an inefficient deck.
  • Even though Carambor can still be annoying, he could at best exhaust a deck once, not twice. Your opponent will still have most of a play deck to go through similar to a 1-deck game.
  • The Carambor Machine player likely looses. And hopefully they feel bad.
You best chance at stopping the machine is before it goes off as it's unlikely to need a restart. Any adjustments made afterwards aren't going to save you often (against a competent Carambor deck/player).

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm Explanation of how Spying Out the Land works under the rules:

Instead, the entire effect of Spying Out the Land is:
"Opponent may reveal to you any hazards from his hand, and only those hazards can be played during the character company's movement/hazard phase. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a modified by -3."
Yeah, could be. It was actually suggested back in 2003 (perhaps sans the corruption check) but didn't pass muster within the Netrep team at the time. IMO Spying Out the Land is in no way crucial to the Carambor trick, it just helps.

CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 pm Explanation of Healing of Nimrodel work under the rules:

Therefore, Carambor must be tapped when declaring the End of the M/H phase effects BEFORE the untapping effects of Healing of Nimrodel can resolve. There is no time to untap Carambor after Healing of Nimrodel has resolved because it is no longer the "End of the Movement/Hazard phase." And if Carambor was untapped and able to tap to move again, Healing of Nimrodel would actually negate the movement by untapping Carambor for the reasons stated in Annotation 5. This is the same reason why characters tapping in support of Narya have their support negated (they must still be tapped at resolution but they were untapped in between).
I like it. Just to clarify in case anyone missed it, this means there is no time for multiple chains of effects at the end of a movement/hazard phase.

Having just the 2x Washed and Refreshed work would certainly make the deck less powerful. Of course people are still able to construct the infinite movement machine, if so inclined. I mean you're still going to have Washed and Refreshed ready nearly a quarter of the time when you start the game. :roll:
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CDavis7M
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miguel wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:20 pm You best chance at stopping the machine is before it goes off as it's unlikely to need a restart. Any adjustments made afterwards aren't going to save you often (against a competent Carambor deck/player).
There are many basic ways to tap Carambor but ironically a Tryhard deck would have more difficulty. Still, Left Behind (also no new site), Pilfer, and Enchanted Stream (cannot untap in response to cancel) will stop it. Blind to the West can stop it from coming back.

I'm surprised that no one used the Official Fix:
Council of Lorien wrote:Rules of etiquette
Players that Stall - If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the game in favor of the non-stalling player.
The Carambor Machine is stalling the game more than what is reasonable and necessary for purposeful gain.
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No one is saying Carambor machine is bulletproof (nothing is). You can absolutely build a hazard deck that has a decent chance against it, but let's be honest, the average tournament hazard portion has very few cards that can stop it. A well built Carambor deck has a lot of helper cards as well, which are important in keeping the cycle going and for the final move, and their impact is not to be underestimated. But everyone is entitled to their opinion of course.

And as for the CoL Tournament Rules, it is not stalling because you advance the game (draw cards etc.).
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CDavis7M
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miguel wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 4:29 pm And as for the CoL Tournament Rules, it is not stalling because you advance the game (draw cards etc.).
If the other player cannot take a turn, the game is stalled regardless of whether cards are drawn or not. The rule on stalling is a rule for tournament etiquette. There is no doubt that most players thinks that the Carambor Machine is poor etiquette (this thread and several other posts as proof). Moving back and forth between the same two sites over and over is not reasonable or necessary for any purpose beyond preventing the other player from taking a turn. The entire point of the Carambor Machine is to prevent the other player from taking their turn so that you can win. That is stalling for purposeful gain.

If merely wasting time to prevent your opponent from taking a 4th or 5th turn is stalling for purposeful gain then certainly preventing your opponent from taking any turns is stalling for purposeful gain. The Carambor Machine is more egregious and drawing cards is no rectification.
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miguel
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:07 pm Moving back and forth between the same two sites over and over is not reasonable or necessary for any purpose beyond preventing the other player from taking a turn. The entire point of the Carambor Machine is to prevent the other player from taking their turn so that you can win. That is stalling for purposeful gain.
No, it's simply playing my turn for purposeful gain. It's necessary to play among other things Bitter Cold X number of times and of course to draw the cards I want to play (they are in the sideboard).

An example of stalling using game mechanics would be having the troll trio untap one another for ten minutes.
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CDavis7M
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The policy for Tournament Etiquette doesn't just consider how many times a person wants to play Bitter Cold, or how many times they think they need to play some card. The purpose of an anti-stalling policy is to stop one player's actions from preventing another player from taking their turn. Whether a player's actions are poor etiquette or not is determined by balancing how reasonable and necessary those actions are compared to how rude it is to prevent another player from taking their turn after they traveled for hours and booked accommodations to play in a tournament. No one has disputed that moving back and forth numerous times using Carambor to end the game is poor etiquette. It's clear from the Council of Lorien Tournament Policy that the Director has a duty to balance these considerations and determine how many Movement/Hazard phases it takes to surpass the boundaries of reasonableness and necessity.

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Washed and Refreshed wrote:When the company's new site is revealed, the company may untap a number of characters equal to the number of regions less than four in its site path
By the way, the most common Carambor Machine tactic seems to be moving between Hidden Haven Weathertop in Arthedain to The White Towers wizardhaven in Arthedain to limit the hazard playability to Wilderness. In order to prevent Hidden Haven from being discarded when Carambor moves away, you need to leave a character at the site. However, when Carambor moves from The White Towers to Weathertop he is moving to a face-up site already in play. Therefore, the untapping effect of Washed and Refreshed does NOT active when moving to Weathertop because the untap effect is specifically triggered by the action of revealing a new site (not based on the game state of moving to a new site). When moving to a face-up site already in play, there is no new site that is revealed and so Washed and Refreshed does not untap any characters.

This means that Carambor would need to eat a Cram or see some Butterflies after moving back to Hidden Haven Weathertop in order to be untapped to move again. That's not going to last too long. Of course, Carambor could always place a new site face-down so that it could be revealed to activate Washed and Refreshed.
miguel wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 4:29 pm the average tournament hazard portion has very few cards that can stop it.
But the average tournament hazard portion is full of Assassins and Sellswords waiting for Carambor at Bree and the Cave-drakes waiting for him to leave Arthedain. Carambor can only move to Hidden Haven Weathertop a handful of times before he is out of Cram/Rations.
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:00 pm Whether a player's actions are poor etiquette or not is determined by balancing how reasonable and necessary those actions are compared to how rude it is to prevent another player from taking their turn after they traveled for hours and booked accommodations to play in a tournament.
That means you'd be allowed to waste a local player's time more..? :lol: Tournament etiquette won't save you from Carambor, stop beating a dead horse.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:00 pm However, when Carambor moves from The White Towers to Weathertop he is moving to a face-up site already in play. Therefore, the untapping effect of Washed and Refreshed does NOT active when moving to Weathertop because the untap effect is specifically triggered by the action of revealing a new site (not based on the game state of moving to a new site). When moving to a face-up site already in play, there is no new site that is revealed and so Washed and Refreshed does not untap any characters.
LOL. Why don't you consider Annotation 25 in that context and get back to me.
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CDavis7M
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miguel wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 10:05 am
CDavis7M wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 7:00 pm However, when Carambor moves from The White Towers to Weathertop he is moving to a face-up site already in play. Therefore, the untapping effect of Washed and Refreshed does NOT active when moving to Weathertop because the untap effect is specifically triggered by the action of revealing a new site (not based on the game state of moving to a new site). When moving to a face-up site already in play, there is no new site that is revealed and so Washed and Refreshed does not untap any characters.
LOL. Why don't you consider Annotation 25 in that context and get back to me.
I'm back. The fact that you're even are bringing up Annotation 25 shows that you aren't understanding what an "annotation" is and that you are forgetting the golden rule. You're taking Annotation 25 out of context in an attempt to somehow argue that moving to face-up Weathertop with Hidden Haven could be considered "revealing" a new site for purposes of Washed and Refreshed. Nice try but that's wrong.

An "annotation" is merely a note added to existing text -- in this case, specific sections of the Starter/Standard rules on playing new sites and moving (see p.48 of the METW Companion). The movement rules specifically allow for a company to move to a face-up site instead of playing a new site. However, nothing in Annotation 25 or the rules on movement suggests that the actions of (A) revealing a face-down site and (B) indicating that a company is moving to a particular face-up site are equivalent for any other purposes besides Step (1) of the Movement/Hazard phase. If it isn't there it isn't there.
newsite.png
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CRF Introduction wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Just because the rules on "playing a new site card" state that a company may move to a face-up site instead of playing a new site card face-down does not mean that moving to a face-up site card counts as actually "revealing" a new site for any other purposes, and certainly not for purposes of Washed and Refreshed.

There is nothing on Washed and Refreshed indicating that a face-up site would trigger it's effect. And there is nothing in the rules on playing a new site card indicating that starting movement to a face-up site counts as revealing a new site card for purposes of card effects. Washed and Refreshed doesn't work when moving to a face-up site already in play. If it isn't there it isn't there.


Sorry your deck doesn't work like you think it does.
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Yeah, I don't think so. To me ICE clearly used revealing of the new site to mean declaration and resolution of the new site. If the site card is face down, part of that declaration is turning it over. Otherwise everything that happens according to the rules when a site is revealed would happen only if the new site started face down, which of course isn't the case.

And really, The Wizards era rules might not be the best place to start splitting hairs.
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miguel wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:30 pm To me ICE clearly used revealing of the new site to mean declaration and resolution of the new site. If the site card is face down, part of that declaration is turning it over. Otherwise everything that happens according to the rules when a site is revealed would happen only if the new site started face down, which of course isn't the case.
The rules describe that a player can indicate that a face-up site in play is a company's new site for purposes of declaring movement. However, there's nothing in the rules to support the interpretation that initiating movement to a face-up site counts as "revealing" a face-down new site for purposes of card effects triggered by the revealing of a face-down site. Doing so clearly violates ICE's Golden Rule of Rulings. If it isn't there it isn't there -- and your interpretation is clearly not there.

If Washed and Refreshed's effect was able to trigger upon moving to a face-up site then it would have said "if the company moves" as in Healing of Nimrodel rather then "when the company's new site is revealed." The card effect is clear, it only triggers when a face-down site is turned face up.
miguel wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:30 pm And really, The Wizards era rules might not be the best place to start splitting hairs.
You are mistaken again. My position doesn't depend on rules from The Wizards. This is how ICE rulings were decided until The End. Rules for one purpose don't apply to other purposes unless they specifically say so. Card effects triggered by revealing a face-down site don't trigger when a face-up site is moved to. On the other hand, card effects triggered by a "moving company" trigger in both cases. The ICE rulings always uphold such differences based on the Golden Rule.

--------

I don't have a vested interest in upholding bogus interpretations based on failure to read the rules and card text. I haven't been misinterpreting the rules so that I could win tournament games at the expense of other player's experience.
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CDavis7M wrote:
miguel wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:30 pm And really, The Wizards era rules might not be the best place to start splitting hairs.
You are mistaken again. My position doesn't depend on rules from The Wizards.
CDavis7M wrote: ...sections of the Starter/Standard rules on playing new sites and moving (see p.48 of the METW Companion).
Then I guess quote something else? Don't mislead me like that... :lol:

Since you completely missed my point, I'll say it again. To me ICE clearly used revealing of the new site to mean declaration and resolution of the new site. If the site card is face down, part of that declaration is turning it over. Otherwise everything that happens according to the rules when a site is revealed would happen only if the new site started face down, which of course isn't the case. Some examples, emphasis is mine:
MELE Booklet: Glossary wrote: Site of Origin: The site where a moving company began its turn. The company is no longer at its site of origin when it reveals a new site at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase.
CRF: Turn Sequence Rulings: Movement/Hazard Phase wrote: Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.
So a company moving to a site already in play is considered a moving company, but also to be at its site of origin..?
MEAtS Insert: Under-deep Site Movement wrote: When an adjacent site is revealed by one of your companies whose site of origin is an Under-deeps site, you must make a roll (2D6). If the result is greater than or equal to the number in parentheses following the adjacent site as listed on its site of origin, the movement/hazard phase proceeds normally. Otherwise, the company returns to its site of origin (no cards are drawn)and the movement/hazard phase proceeds as if the company had not moved.
Oh man, I guess you can't move to a site like that if it's already in play. I mean, how would you, the rules don't cover it!
The Reach of Ulmo wrote:The roll required to move between adjacent Under-deeps sites is increased by 2. In addition, cancels the effect of Great Ship and Ford. May be played when an Under-deep site is revealed as a new site card (before the roll is made). Discard when any play deck is exhausted or when an Under-deeps site is reached from another Under-deeps site or at the end of the turn after Great Ship or Ford was played. Cannot be duplicated.
Let's say I made a house rule to get around those dumb under-deeps movement rules. The Reach of Ulmo would affect all movement rolls, but it could only be played for movement rolls for sites that started face down... Maybe, but doesn't make much sense.

It's not my fault ICE wasn't consistent with their terms. But because they weren't, you cannot say with certainty that they meant "if the company moves" in some cases, just not for Washed and Refreshed.
CDavis7M wrote: I don't have a vested interest in upholding bogus interpretations based on failure to read the rules and card text.
Are you suggesting that I do have a vested interest? Should be clear to any sane person reading this thread that I do not...
CDavis7M wrote:I haven't been misinterpreting the rules so that I could win tournament games at the expense of other player's experience.
Who hurt you? I might as well ask you "have you stopped beating your wife yet", but I won't because I'm classy like that. No, but seriously, you keep bringing this up, so let's hear it! What exactly (do you think) happened? Start a new thread for it, if you like. :D
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CDavis7M
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Gee Miguel, I'm just teaching you the rules of this game. No need to get upset. Everyone knows the rules are difficult. No one would fault you for having played them wrong.
miguel wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:39 am Since you completely missed my point, I'll say it again. To me ICE clearly used revealing of the new site to mean declaration and resolution of the new site.
I understand your point and why it is incorrect with respect to Washed and Refreshed. You're argument is that since a face-up site card already in play can be used instead of playing a face-down site card for purposes of declaring movement to a site, then moving to a face-up site card already in play is the same as revealing a face-down site card for other purposes besides declaring a new site (i.e., for purposes of declaring card effects specifically triggered by "revealing" a new site card). However, your interpretation is incorrect because it is counter to ICE's fundamental ruling policy:
CRF Introduction wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Accordingly, just because a face-up site can be used as new site for purposes of declaring movement, that does NOT mean that moving to the face-up site count as "revealing" a face-down site, and certainly not for purposes of triggering card effects based on "revealing" sites. Because Washed and Refreshed states "when the company's new site is revealed," this effect only triggers when a face-down site card is revealed, even though a face-up site card can be used instead of a face-down site card for the different purpose of declaring movement to a new site.

This is the most basic principle of ICE rulings and would be clear to anyone that has read them. That is why it is in the Introduction to the Collected Rulings File. All of the rulings in the CRF were made based on this principle.

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"Replacing" a site card is not the same as "moving" to the site card. However, ICE changed how to play certain cards by ruling that "Replacing the site card is considered movement, without a movement/hazard phase" for the purpose of certain card effects.

If Washed and Refreshed were to work with movement to a face-up site, ICE would have needed to rule that "moving to a face-up site already in play is considered to 'reveal' that site." However, there is no such ruling. "Remember: if it isn't there it isn't there." You can keep looking for a way to make Washed and Refreshed work with a face-up site but it isn't there.
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MELE wrote:At the beginning of its movement/hazard phase, a moving company’s new site card is revealed and its current site card becomes its site of origin.
A new site card "is revealed" regardless of whether it is already face up. The earlier quoted player turn summary only says when to "turn it over".
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