Re: Potential Carambor Fix
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:15 am
Another problem with getting the rules to work are the number of traditions based on things ICE said that they never got around to actually writing down.
Another problem with getting the rules to work are the number of traditions based on things ICE said that they never got around to actually writing down.
Which incidently was also the last time it was seen in a tournament . But seriously, I've played couple GO's again the last years, and didn't see the deck come up. How much of a threat is it? It's not cool having a broken strategy, but if everybody just ignores it...Logain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:49 pm
I warned ICE in 1998 about this combo, they banned it on the spot (french nationals 1998).
I like preemptively fixing broken. If even one person is turned away from the game after playing against a deck in which they can do nothing, that's a loss we can ill afford.Thorsten the Traveller wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 pmWhich incidently was also the last time it was seen in a tournament . But seriously, I've played couple GO's again the last years, and didn't see the deck come up. How much of a threat is it? It's not cool having a broken strategy, but if everybody just ignores it...Logain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:49 pm
I warned ICE in 1998 about this combo, they banned it on the spot (french nationals 1998).
Otherwise, I got no problem with the 1x per turn fix, is fine. Option 2/3 I don't agree with.
Washed and Refreshed and Healing of Nimrodel should only apply to one M/H phase.miguel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:25 pmThe only card you need to draw for the machine is Washed and Refreshed or Healing of Nimrodel, then Carambor can keep running between Weathertop (Hidden Havened at draft) and The White Towers via Arthedain . The other cards mentioned above are just gravy; they help but are certainly not necessary for the machine to work.Jose-san wrote:Too restrictive to my taste. Maybe I don't understand the Carambor machine fully. Why not issue errata for Here Is a Snake!instead, so it only lasts until the end of the current M-H phase?
Once the machine is up and running, the moves are relatively safe. Carambor is teamed up with a magic user, so his company gets benefits such as 20x Bitter Cold to help with the final move(s)...
In addition to the above Carambor clarification, "if" should be read as a binary trigger, after the resolution of which the effect of the short event ends. This is different from "whenever" or "each time" paired up with an "until end of turn", or an "if" on a long event. So this card can only trigger once per play.[HEALING OF NIMRODEL ‐ Short‐event (C)-]
Playable during the organization phase on a moving company whose site of origin is a Haven. If the company moves to another
Haven this turn, at the end of the movement/hazard phase all wounded characters in the company heal (from wounded to
untapped) and all tapped characters untap.
"The company's new site" should be read as referring to the particular (currently unrevealed) site. The syntax parsing association should be [the [company's new site]], rather than [[the company's] [new site]]. Admittedly, either of these two parses are allowed in English, so this interpretation is my recommendation; additional sites that may later be played/revealed by the moving company are not referred to on this card.[WASHED AND REFRESHED ‐ Short‐event (C)]
Playable at the end of the organization phase on a moving company. When the companyʹs new site is revealed, the company
may untap a number of characters equal to the number of regions less than four in its site path.
No. A player has a movement/hazard phase during which each of his companies has a movement hazard phase. See METW p. 41:
andYou may only play hazard cards during your opponent's movement/hazard phase.
This does lead to some interesting things below.During your movement/hazard phase, both players draw cards when each company moves.
It refers to a singular "phase" rather than "phases", and in the rules as written up to that point on the card there is only the one M/H phase per turn to refer to, so the ability must refer to (just) that phase. This interpretation reveals that the proposed "once per turn" change would actually result in an increase in power, in that a party could benefit from both Carambor's ability and e.g. Bridge on the same turn, whereas currently they couldn't.
There is no limiter on this other than it be the end of his company's movement/hazard phase. And it explicitly gives the company another movement/hazard phase, so the ability is usable at the end of that one as well, so long as Carambor is able to tap.Carambor wrote:May tap at the end of his company's movement/hazard phase to allow it to move to an additional site on the same turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for his company.
Right but wrong. The phrase "at the end of the movement/hazard phase" actually refers to the player's movement/hazard phase, so this one can only occur after all companies have finished their movement/hazard phases. This might be sufficient to knock out a Carambor machine if Carambor gets wounded. I believe this one has commonly been read as the company's movement/hazard phase, but that's not what it actually says.Washed and Refreshed and Healing of Nimrodel should only apply to one M/H phase.
Underlines mine:In addition to the above Carambor clarification, "if" should be read as a binary trigger, after the resolution of which the effect of the short event ends. This is different from "whenever" or "each time" paired up with an "until end of turn", or an "if" on a long event. So this card can only trigger once per play.[HEALING OF NIMRODEL ‐ Short‐event (C)-]
Playable during the organization phase on a moving company whose site of origin is a Haven. If the company moves to another
Haven this turn, at the end of the movement/hazard phase all wounded characters in the company heal (from wounded to
untapped) and all tapped characters untap.
In this case, though, if the company's new site is revealed, the effect happens. Any time the company's new site is revealed. The card is not played on a site, it is played on the company. There are any number of rules that make it clear that the site a company is moving to in the movement/hazard phase is their new site, so I don't think this one can tenably be read as referring to one specific site during the turn."The company's new site" should be read as referring to the particular (currently unrevealed) site. The syntax parsing association should be [the [company's new site]], rather than [[the company's] [new site]]. Admittedly, either of these two parses are allowed in English, so this interpretation is my recommendation; additional sites that may later be played/revealed by the moving company are not referred to on this card.[WASHED AND REFRESHED ‐ Short‐event (C)]
Playable at the end of the organization phase on a moving company. When the companyʹs new site is revealed, the company
may untap a number of characters equal to the number of regions less than four in its site path.
I would be in favor of errata clarifying these points.
Definitely.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:42 am <snip>
The phrase "at the end of the movement/hazard phase" actually refers to the player's movement/hazard phase, so this one can only occur after all companies have finished their movement/hazard phases.
I see the possibility of your interpretation, but I continue to see mine as well. *sigh* English.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:42 amIn this case, though, if the company's new site is revealed, the effect happens. Any time the company's new site is revealed. The card is not played on a site, it is played on the company. There are any number of rules that make it clear that the site a company is moving to in the movement/hazard phase is their new site, so I don't think this one can tenably be read as referring to one specific site during the turn."The company's new site" should be read as referring to the particular (currently unrevealed) site. The syntax parsing association should be [the [company's new site]], rather than [[the company's] [new site]]. Admittedly, either of these two parses are allowed in English, so this interpretation is my recommendation; additional sites that may later be played/revealed by the moving company are not referred to on this card.
<snip>
My discussion of parsing is probably not helpful for everyone. Maybe an example would help:
Option 1 will make Carambor uninteresting, 2 unavailable for Fallen Wizards and thus limit deck options, 3 should be no option.
Shapeshifter wrote:5. His special ability should not be usable when moving to a haven and not in combination with Spying Out the Land and Here is a Snake.
edit 18-01-23Unique. May tap at the end of his company's movement/hazard phase to allow it to move to an additional site on the same turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for his company. The new site path must contain at least one Wilderness, and hazard creatures may be played and keyed to his company's new site and site path regardless of resource effects in play.
Second, while this could be interpreted as a problem with Carambor, it could also be interpreted as a problem with either Washed and Refreshed or Healing of Nimrodel. Namely, the problem could result from the current interpretation of those two cards, which is that both create an ongoing effect that has no limit within the player's M/H phase.The only card you need to draw for the machine is Washed and Refreshed or Healing of Nimrodel, then Carambor can keep running between Weathertop (Hidden Havened at draft) and The White Towers via Arthedain .