WHCtK & ACM bad news

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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rezwits
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So, I have been going over this for a few weeks now, and as much as I don't want to, because I love these cards, I have some bad news.

Due to the following rule:
MEWH Rule Book (insert)
TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
and then this ruling:
CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 11 #23
23. Black Rain: "Sage only: Playable on an untapped sage during the site phase at a Ruins & Lairs in a Wilderness. Opponent must reveal to you a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character from his hand if available; otherwise, he must reveal his entire hand. If a character is so revelaed, make a roll (draw a #). If the sage is a Ringwraith, modify the roll by -2. According to the result, you may play an item from your hand with the sage (tapping the sage): The One Ring (10, 11, 12), a Dwarven ring (8, 9, 10, 11, 12), or a Spirit ring (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)."
Rule 1: In the MEWH Rules, Targeting Site and Resource Cards: "A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card."
Rule 2: In the MEWH Rules, Playing Resources at a Site: "In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site."
Assume I'm playing FW: Which rule will I follow: Rule 1 or Rule 2?
*** Rule 1.
We cannot play:

WHCtK at HERO, Border-holds, Shadow-holds, or Ruins & Lairs
-or-
A Chance Meeting at MINION, Free-holds, Border-holds, or Ruins & Lairs

PEACE ✌️

n.b. I am sure many of you know this already, but I just thought I would make a note...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
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If you have other collected rulings that are not
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the JabberwocK
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So you are saying that A Chance Meeting / WHCTK targets the site that the character is played at?


Also, did you intentionally post this in the Rules & Errata forum? Are you wanting to discuss this as a possible candidate for an erratum?
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rezwits
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Well like Black Rain, it targets/requires, a Ruins & Lairs (in a wilderness to boot). But it's basically the same thing.

I mean if they said Black Rain, is a case of targeting, then I would say that yes, WHCtK and ACM, is targeting also.

Wether this needs to be moved to just the Rules sub-forum, IDK, I think there needs to be a clarification if this is an unknown or overlooked situation. I have been dreading it myself in my deck building lately. :(

But if you think this needs moving go ahead, but yes they definitely target the site (as far as an erratum, I don't think the cards need to be changed, unless they have been played wrong, I am a newbie in the (deeper) FW and WHCtK & ACM, and it has donned on me this last month or so). But YES, if people have been overlooking the appropiate playability then there needs to be a clarification in the sorts of "This means YOU WHCtK & Chance Meeting" then cool I guess. I mean does CoE do clarifications any more? or only erratum? IDK

Basically, each Resource says, applicalble R&L? Bring Character into play at site... I mean normally this applies when bringing in an Item, Ally, or Faction, but in their cases it's the exception that you are bringing in a Character.

Night...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
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If you have other collected rulings that are not
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the JabberwocK
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Black Rain requires a Ruins & Lairs in a Wilderness. I'm not so sure that it targets it though. It clearly targets the Sage and targets/affects the Ring Item you play.

rezwits wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:17 am I mean does CoE do clarifications any more? or only erratum? IDK
Yes, the CoE issues both clarifications and errata via the Annual Rules Vote.
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Bandobras Took
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rezwits wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:17 am Well like Black Rain, it targets/requires, a Ruins & Lairs (in a wilderness to boot). But it's basically the same thing.
It is not the same thing at all. Targets are entities through which actions are played out. Conditions must merely be established/exist.
The Cock Crows wrote:Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, it forces the discard of one hazard permanent-event.
Gates of Morning being in play is a condition. The Cock Crows does not cause any actions to be played out through Gates of Morning.

Whichever hazard permanent-event is chosen is a target, as there is an action (discarding) that will play out through that card.

As for the CoE ruling above:

Of course you don't follow rule 2. Ring Special Items do not tap a site normally. You follow rule 1, and since Black Rain doesn't target or affect the site, you're in the clear.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
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rezwits
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:20 pm As for the CoE ruling above:

Of course you don't follow rule 2. Ring Special Items do not tap a site normally. You follow rule 1, and since Black Rain doesn't target or affect the site, you're in the clear.
I am confused by the "you're in the clear" so you are saying Black Rain does not "target", but it does follow along the lines of Rule 1? Rule 1 is from the MEWH rulebook, stating the hero resources with hero sites and minion resources with minion sites only.

I guess to me I may not understand the jargon but things are clear when it comes to these two things.

Scenario 1
During the site phase at a HERO Ruins & Lairs site I could:
Enter combat, face AA(s).
After combat is over I could Weight things to a Nicety, Dark Tryst, then play A Chance Meeting (not We Have Come to Kill).

Scenario 2
During the site phase at a MINION Ruins & Lairs site I could:
Enter combat, face AA(s).
After combat is over I could Weight things to a Nicety, Dark Tryst, then play We Have Come to kill (not A Chance Meeting).

But whichever way you guys think this needs to be whatever, I have accepted the outcome either way, and even in the spirit of the game/theme I feel that's how this would be played. Now I am not saying Minion Characters must be brought in with WHCtK, or Hero Characters with A Chance Meeting (at applicable sites), as these are NOT RESOURCES.

Just food for thought I guess...

(I am mean I am all for MORE playability and POWER from cards) heh, just something I haven't been able to shake the last month or so...
One other thing that comes to reason is the "targets/affects":

To me if you have a card that says to some extent, one of these two "types" of statements then the resource alignment rule applies:
You may do such and such at a given site.
or
If at a given site do whatever.

In both cases "sites" were mentioned, so I mean targets? affects? The thesaurus states Affects similar to Regard similar to Note... And clearly WHCtK and ACM state their affects in regard to the site, or "note" specific sites... (on a different case in point, affect CAN also be considered a two-way street, i.e. one cannot affect without being affected).

As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
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Bandobras Took
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rezwits wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:56 pm
Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:20 pm As for the CoE ruling above:

Of course you don't follow rule 2. Ring Special Items do not tap a site normally. You follow rule 1, and since Black Rain doesn't target or affect the site, you're in the clear.
I am confused by the "you're in the clear" so you are saying Black Rain does not "target", but it does follow along the lines of Rule 1? Rule 1 is from the MEWH rulebook, stating the hero resources with hero sites and minion resources with minion sites only.
Rule 2 can't be relevant because Ring Special Items do not tap sites. The CoE response says that you need to look at rule 1 in this situation. Therefore, you look at whether any of a card's actions target/affects the site.
Sage only. Playable on an untapped sage during the site phase at a Ruins & Lairs in a Wilderness. Opponent must reveal to you a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character from his hand if available; otherwise, he must reveal his entire hand. If a character is so revealed, make a roll (draw a #). If the sage is a Ringwraith, modify the roll by -2. According to the result, you may play an item from your hand with the sage (tapping the sage): The One Ring (10,11,12), a Dwarven Ring (8,9,10,11,12), or a Spirit Ring (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7).
Taking it one at a time:

It is playable on an untapped sage at a ruins & lairs. In other words, the *sage* must be at the Ruins & Lairs. The Sage is a target because Black Rain is played on the Sage. If the Sage is not at a Ruins & Lairs, the card may not be played on the Sage. The card does not target the Ruins & Lairs here. The Ruins & Lairs is used to see whether a given Sage is a valid target.

The Opponent's Hand is theoretically targeted, but there are no rules prohibiting that.

If a character is revealed, there is a die roll that may result in the play of an item. The item is not targeted because one need not specify at declaration which item one is going to play (and, indeed, it is impossible to specify until after the roll is made).

Tapping the sage targets the sage.

Since nothing targets/affects the site itself, it is valid to play this card at a Hero Ruins & Lairs per rule 1, which only forbids resources which target/affect the site.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
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rezwits
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whoa whoa whoa, I am not concered with Black Rain at all (at least not anymore).
Those were just strict quotes from CoE Digests. I was using them as reference for an example, but yeah they are causing too much confusion here.

If you want you can throw all the examples and discusion about Black Rain out the window, and only look at this:

---== MEWH Rules ==---
TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
I am only stating that WHCtK and ACM, affect the site. That's as clear as I can be.

WHCtK only at Minion Sites, ACM only at Hero Sites.

Both of these cards alter what is playable at those sites.
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
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Bandobras Took
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How exactly do they affect the site? What is different about the sites after they are played?
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rezwits
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They allow you to play characters there (just as if these cards were to say "You may a play greater item"). This is simply an extention of the site, in my eyes at least...(If you can imagine, the card would be altered if possible, to say minor, major, GREATER) So when you play WHCtK or ACM:

Like on the card, the site now has a special ability, the ability to play a character at the site.

This was the original reason I posted the Black Rain, because for some reason there seems to be a SOLE LOGIC, where:

Unless a Resource taps the site it doesn't affect it. I mean the playing of SAID RESOURCES, doesn't rip the site card in half, but it does alter the site, as in a what's playable.

But like I said in an ealier post, THESE RESOURCES expicitly mention SITES, i.e. therefore they are affected by each other...

Here is a quick example:

When you play WHCtK or ACM at an applicable site, the site GAINS THIS ABILITY, like at Bree:

BREE (minion)
Nearest Darkhaven: Carn Dûm Playable: Information, Items (minor, gold ring) Automatic-attacks: Dúnedain-each character faces 1 strike with 7 prowess (detainment against covert company) Special: Agent minions may be brought into play under direct influence at this site.
WHCtK and ACM, affect/alter sites to have their SPECIAL Ability that is similar not exact but my gosh...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
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If you have other collected rulings that are not
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Bandobras Took
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You're putting something in the card that isn't there.

As a parallel example:

The Lonely Mountain has a dragon attack of 1 strike at 14 prowess.

Smaug (the creature card) creates a dragon attack of 2 strikes at 17 prowess.

These are not the same thing, even though both result in a dragon attack. One is the ability of a site. The other is created by the play of a card, and does not affect the site (even if the attack is keyed to a site).

Bree's ability and Chance Meeting/WHCtK both result in character play, but that does not mean they are the same thing. A successful influence attempt against your opponent also results in character play, but that doesn't somehow give a site an ability, either. Even though the character has to come into play at the site of the influencer's company.

There are plenty of resources that affect a site without tapping it. Quiet Lands would be an example. So is Rebuild the Town.

Dwarven Hoard is a very good example: it doesn't even target the site, but it still affects it by causing it to have hoard status until the end of the turn.

Most sites do not have an intrinsic ability to bring characters into play (exceptions are Havens, Urlurtsu Nurn, Bree, etc.) Rather, character cards themselves list the sites where they may be brought into play. If Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill affect anything, it's a character's list of acceptable sites -- not the sites themselves.
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rezwits
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Well a parallel example would be:
Smaug at Home
Unique. Unless Smaug Ahunt is in play, The Lonely Mountain has an additional automatic-attack: Dragon-2 strikes at 18/8. In addition, each moving company draws one less card to a minimum of one at the start of it's movement/hazard phase. "'I have been that way twice, when I knew there was a dragon on the other end...'"-Hob
The difference is clear Dark Tryst can be played at a Hero Site, NO MENTION of SITES in it's texts.
WHCtK and ACM meeting can't be played at opposite alighments sites because of the mere mention of SITES and the MEWH Rules.

That's all nothing else really to say, and if there are other resource cards that mention sites, I would be hard pressed to say that they shouldn't follow the MEWH Rulebook (insert) just the same.
TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
If you have some clear cut cards that MENTION sites or a site, and shouldn't follow the rules like this, let me know, I haven't researched much further, but I contemplated this post for over a month... to make sure the basis was correct.

Happy Holidays
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
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If you have other collected rulings that are not
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Bandobras Took
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Return of the King wrote:Unique. Aragorn II only. Only playable in Minas Tirith and only if Denethor II is not in play. Aragorn II's direct influence is modified by +3. Keep this card with Aragorn II; discard if he leaves play.
Doesn't affect the site at all.

A FW using the optional Wizard to FW Conversion rules would (under current standards) be able to play this card at a minion Minas Tirith.
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rezwits
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Bandobras Took wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:34 pm
Return of the King wrote:Unique. Aragorn II only. Only playable in Minas Tirith and only if Denethor II is not in play. Aragorn II's direct influence is modified by +3. Keep this card with Aragorn II; discard if he leaves play.
Doesn't affect the site at all.

A FW using the optional Wizard to FW Conversion rules would (under current standards) be able to play this card at a minion Minas Tirith.
Yeah I can see your point, with this card. As for the theme case, they'll just have the ceremony in the out house crapper outside the perimeter wall in the shrubs. :P

They won't necessarily affect the site at all in that case, I was just using affect in the most extreme case to get point accross...

BUT HEY FREE RANGE CHICKEN!! We Come to Kill and A Chance Meeting LIMITLESS WOO HOO!!! How can I complain!! haha

Merry Christmas to all and to all a GOOD NIGHT!
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
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CDavis7M
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My understanding regarding these cards is the same as the Old Took's.

Another interesting rules point is that A Chance Meeting (if chance it was) can't target orcs due to the MEWH rules preventing hero resources from targeting orcs (eg ACM) and from using them to satisfy skill conditions.

BUT, if ACM was targeting the site (not the character), then it would be possible to ACM an orc.
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