Council of Elrond

Proposed regulation:

"A declared card with alternative effects is considered as only requiring the conditions of declared effect (i.e. either primary or alternative effect). Otherwise the card is considered as requiring the conditions of both primary and alternative effects".

This is mainly for purposes of interpreting Searching Eye and Palantír of Annúminas, potentially other effects.

Ruse played for its primary effect should not be a valid target of Searching Eye. Gnaw with Words can be retrieved by effect of Palantír of Annúminas (if in discard pile it is considered both as requiring Sage skill and as requiring Diplomat skills).

Gnaw with Words is not a "sage only" card. Your proposal does not add "Sage only" to the card.

Ruse has its own ARV 201920 vote, which if it isn't butchered in the write-up will resolve itself. Without that, your proposal would literally make the second effect not require either a scout or a diplomat.

CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 am Without that, your proposal would literally make the second effect not require either a scout or a diplomat.

I think that currently Ruse is both Diplomat only and Scout only, when played for its primary effect. Even if a scout is not involved in the effect.
It is neither Diplomat only nor Scout only, but still requiring a scout when played for alternative effect. It just targets a scout, so it requires it even if it is not labeled as Scout only.
Tower Raided is not labeled as Scout only but it requires a scout (and when declared is valid target of Searching Eye).

I see no reason for the proposed regulation in view of Annotation 27.

General Play / Timing
Annotation 27: If a card has optional effects, the player playing the card must choose which will take place. He must do this at the time the card is played, not when it is resolved in its chain of effects. When such a card is resolved, if any active conditions for the choice of effects do not exist, the card has no effect and is discarded. The player may not at this point choose to implement an alternative effect of the card.

Also, keywords exist regardless of which effect is declared but keywords carry no inherent meaning and are simply indicators for reference by other effects.

Tower Raided does not necessarily require a scout. Secret Entrance requires a sage and is "Sage only" per the CRF.

Gnaw with Words is a hazard. Hazards don't have skill keywords.

Konrad, I know that CRF entry has been riddled with debate, but I read it not as requiring a sage to be in play (as a target) for the card to be played, but as requiring a sage to play the card. As such, it is largely vacuous.

CRF wrote:If an "alternative" or "additional" effect does not have any "playable ..." conditions, then the "playable on ..." conditions from the primary effect of the card apply. The following cards are exceptions to this rule: Gloom, Good Sense Revolts, Half an Eye Open, Heedless Revelry, Here is a Snake, In the Name of Mordor, Inner Cunning, Nobody's Friend, Withdrawn to Mordor, and Wolf- riders.

I was thinking this also caused "Playable by" conditions to be inherited, but you are correct that they wouldn't be. What unfortunate word choice from this CRF entry. If there were cards with alternative effects with "playable by" but no "playable on" conditions, they wouldn't inherit the "playable on" conditions of the primary effect. O_o

Searching Eye refers to a card, not to its declared effect. It is hard to imagine that declared primary/alternative effect is discarded.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:36 pm Tower Raided does not necessarily require a scout.

How to declare it without untapped scout?

Regardless of controversial text of "CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only" thus controversial status of Gnaw with Words,
there may be cards with alternative effects where only some of the effects require sage skill (or have X requirement); there may be also cards where only some of their effects require scout skill (have Y requirement).

The proposed regulation only complements existing rules.

A card that may be played as either a creature or an event, since declared counts as only one type, not as card of both types.
In other cases it may be correctly referred both as a creature and as an event.

Agent card that uses character card template may be played either as a hazard or as a character*, not as both, and is not in play as both.
In other cases it may be correctly referred both as hazard and as character.

*) Only by players using some type of deck.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:56 am Searching Eye refers to a card, not to its declared effect. It is hard to imagine that declared primary/alternative effect is discarded.

It's clear from the rules (and examples you've given) that when a player declares and selects between alternatives on a card, then the card IS that alternative (and is not the non-selected option).

I just find it weird that the proposal says one thing that is reasonable and consistent with Annotation 27. But then all of the examples given for why the proposal are needed disagree with Annotation 27.

If Searching Eye said "cancel a Scout Only card" then it could still cancel Ruse regardless of which effect was selected as "Scout only" is still a keyword of Ruse regardless. However, Searching Eye says "a card that required scout skill to play."

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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:56 am

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:36 pm Tower Raided does not necessarily require a scout.

How to declare it without untapped scout?

My mistake. Play of Tower Raided targets the site (not a Scout) but on my second read I see that the playability conditions do require a scout.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:51 pm It's clear from the rules (and examples you've given) that when a player declares and selects between alternatives on a card, then the card IS that alternative (and is not the non-selected option).

This is just the reason of making the regulation.

Any effect that checks for requirements of declared card should receive an answer that takes into consideration only declared (primary or alternative) part of the card.
Other effects that check for requirements of a card should receive an answer that takes into consideration all possible (primary and alternative) parts of card.

Searching Eye, Palantír of Annúminas are only current checkers that I know.
But the proposal is generic and would apply to potential future checkers (or existing currently but overlooked).

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:51 pm If Searching Eye said "cancel a Scout Only card" then it could still cancel Ruse regardless of which effect was selected as "Scout only" is still a keyword of Ruse regardless. However, Searching Eye says "a card that required scout skill to play."

Yes.
It may change if some errata proposal for Ruse will pass.