Beginning/end of phase and turn #2

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CDavis7M
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This game has such a period and it is provided by the expression "during the ___ phase." Do as many things as you want.

But the expression "at the beginning/end of the ____ phase" is limiting on purpose.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:22 pm But the expression "at the beginning/end of the ____ phase" is limiting on purpose.
It should have a limiting purpose. I do not want to change it.

According to the proposal beginning/end of phase/turn is not a point but a period.
Unlimited number of actions may be declared within the period, but which actions may be declared (triggered/declared by player) is limited.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:22 pm This game has such a period and it is provided by the expression "during the ___ phase." Do as many things as you want.

But the expression "at the beginning/end of the ____ phase" is limiting on purpose.
From this post and your lack of answering my previous one leads me to believe that you must think that no effects that are required to be played at the beginning/end of the phase can actually resolve. Once the effect is declared, that ends the moment of "at the beginning/end of the phase" such that the conditions for the effect to be played are invalid when it resolves.

Alternatively, the "beginning/end" are allowed to have a duration.
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CDavis7M
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They don't have a duration lasting multiple chains of effects. That is clear.
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Theo
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Since I know you are a fan of un-Collected ICE rulings:
Ruling Digest 538 wrote:>1. How are handled (for a given company) multiple "end of
>movement/hazard phase" effects (Bridge, Healing of Nimrodel, Lure
>of Nature...) ? Do they all happen in a single chain of effect, or
>are they treated separatly one after the other
?

They are treated separately. They resolve in the order that they
resolved when put into play. If they were already in play at the
start of the M/H phase, the hazard player decides the order of the
effects.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:18 am Since I know you are a fan of un-Collected ICE rulings:
Ruling Digest 538 wrote:>1. How are handled (for a given company) multiple "end of
>movement/hazard phase" effects (Bridge, Healing of Nimrodel, Lure
>of Nature...) ? Do they all happen in a single chain of effect, or
>are they treated separatly one after the other
?

They are treated separately. They resolve in the order that they
resolved when put into play. If they were already in play at the
start of the M/H phase, the hazard player decides the order of the
effects.
The question is: Are these effects (A) in the same chain of effects or (B) treated separately (presumably in separate chains of effects.

The rationale for Van's answer is based on Annotation 26 which covers how to handle (A) effects in the same chain of effects. But the answer given is (B)? Why is there a discrepancy? Probably because there is no actual gameplay example was brought up by the questioner.

But, if the rationale is the rule for handling effects triggered in the same chain of effects, then the answer should be (A) these effects are in the same chain of effects.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:52 pm There is no rule that generally disallows actions at the beginning/end of the phases besides the rules specific to the M/H and Site phases.
CRF End-of-Turn Phase wrote:End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:13 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:52 pm There is no rule that generally disallows actions at the beginning/end of the phases besides the rules specific to the M/H and Site phases.
CRF End-of-Turn Phase wrote:End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
Nice try. This rule doesn't disallow actions at the end of the EoT phase. It disallows actions after the end of the end of the turn, before the beginning of any following turn.

Nothing disallows a generally declarable, non-EoT action from being declared in the same chain of effects as other EoT effects.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:50 am Trying to understand your alternative to the proposal; are you implying:
1) that only one chain of effects can occur at the beginning/end of a phase?
2) that only one effect may be actively declared at the beginning/end of a phase?
3) that only one effect may occur at the beginning/end of a phase?

And why?

I would think that the precedent is that phases/sub-phases don't normally transition until the players agree that they transition; if they can begin any chains of effect, they can begin as many as they want.
Theo wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:13 pm
CRF End-of-Turn Phase wrote:End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
I would think that the precedent is that the beginning/end of a phase happens in a single chain of effects, same as the end of turn effects happening in a single chain of effects. Meaning that one chain of effects at the end of the phase cannot happen after another chain of effects at the end of the same phase, just as a second chain of effects cannot happen after a first chain of effects at the end of the turn.
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Theo
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I'm not sure how you are interpreting "declared and resolved" as there being only one chain of effects, when to me this implies the opposite; one can't "declare and resolve" multiple things in any order without multiple chains of effect. A simple "declared" in any order would imply one chain of effects.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:27 am I'm not sure how you are interpreting "declared and resolved" as there being only one chain of effects,
The statement on "declared and resolved" in the CRF EoT section refers to annotation 9 which describes a single chain of effects, and that's how I am interpreting it.
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Theo
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Ok, I can see how you can wander down that path now, by willfully ignoring the "and resolved" part of the phrase.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 pm Nice try. This rule doesn't disallow actions at the end of the EoT phase. It disallows actions after the end of the end of the turn, before the beginning of any following turn.
How about I underline a different part:
CRF End-of-Turn Phase wrote:End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
If the End-of-Turn actions are still "at" (in) the end of the EoT phase, it has already been determined that both players are done with all actions.
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CDavis7M
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Are you ignoring that it is a reference to Annotation 9?

I'm really not sure what your point is. Nothing in that CRF entry on end of turn effects goes against my previous point: "There is no rule that generally disallows actions at the beginning/end of the phases besides the rules specific to the M/H and Site phases."

Anyway, what is the gameplay issue? All these posts to fixed a supposed problem and there are no actual gameplay issues.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 am Anyway, what is the gameplay issue? All these posts to fixed a supposed problem and there are no actual gameplay issues.
Clash of (multiple copies of) Bring Our Curses Home and/or Foes Shall Fall.
For instance.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:29 am
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 am Anyway, what is the gameplay issue? All these posts to fixed a supposed problem and there are no actual gameplay issues.
Clash of (multiple copies of) Bring Our Curses Home and/or Foes Shall Fall.
For instance.
How is this any different from multiple Ahunt Dragons?
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