Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

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panotxa
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Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by panotxa »

Dear fellow players,

I have one doubt that I hope I'll solve once and for all after this inquiry...

(1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
Rules Erratum: An on-guard card may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase. This means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
Foolish Words:
Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4. If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares a riddling, offering, or influence attempt.
During his organization phase, a character with this card may tap to attempt to remove it. Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 7, discard this card.
If I strictly follow the Rules Erratum, it seems that Foolish Words can't target that character... but reading Foolish Words card text I may understand that "card text overrides rules" and no need that character was a valid target during movement/hazard phase...

(2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?

This scenario, in an online tournament some years ago, in a game between Brian Min and Manuel Cabezalí, was "ruled" that on-guard Foolish Word's couldn't target the bouncing character.

(3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?

Thanks!

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by Konrad Klar »

Text of Foolish Words overrides the normal conditions of revealing AND playing of on-guard cards.

This means that the card can be revealed/played even if its target did not exist in M/H phase, AND that its timing is different, i.e. it is played when revealed, not retroactively, so it cannot be removed by Marvels Told played in response, AND it may be played/revealed in response to declaration of any influence/offering/riddling attempt, not only in response to a declaration of influence attempt against a faction, or in response to declaration of card that potentially taps a site.
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panotxa
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by panotxa »

Treating Foolish Words this way Konrad contradicts Netrep Digest 52, which I think is official, isn’t it?
After declaring an influence attempt on a faction, opponent reveals
Foolish Words as on-guard card; player influencing plays Marvels Told.
Is Foolish Words discarded immediately or after the attempt?

*** It is discarded immediately, because the Foolish Words was
considered in play by the time the influence attempt was announced.
CRF, Turn Sequence Rulings, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards:
A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were
both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects
during which it was revealed.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:39 pm
Text of Foolish Words overrides the normal conditions of revealing AND playing of on-guard cards.

This means that the card can be revealed/played even if its target did not exist in M/H phase, AND that its timing is different, i.e. it is played when revealed, not retroactively, so it cannot be removed by Marvels Told played in response, AND it may be played/revealed in response to declaration of any influence/offering/riddling attempt, not only in response to a declaration of influence attempt against a faction, or in response to declaration of card that potentially taps a site.
The statement "revealed and played" in Foolish Words does not override the retroactive timing of cards revealed on-guard. The phrase "and played" is needed because Foolish Words is a targeted permanent event that is "Playable on a character." Other cards describing how/when they can be "revealed" (but not played) on-guard are short events or non-targeted long/permanent events that do not need to be played on any particular target.

Foolish Words revealed on-guard is retroactively played on a character and it can be targeted by Marvels Told, etc.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed May 06, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by CDavis7M »

panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
No because of the Rules Erratum you mentioned. The character did not exist during the M/H phase.

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panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?
No because if Foolish Words was played during the M/H phase and then the character was removed to hand using Call of Home, then Foolish Words would have been discarded already.
ICE wrote:The spirit of the on-guard card is to represent a hazard threat that existed during a company's movement/hazard phase, but of which the company was not aware. The actual rule that portrays this spirit is: an on-guard may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase--this is a slight modification from the rule printed on page page 61 of the METW Unlimited Rulesbook. Practically, this means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
The requirement that all targets exist during the M/H phase is just a secondary implementation of the spirit of the on-guard rules. Foolish Words cannot be revealed and played on-guard on a character that was removed to hand by Call of Home because Foolish Words would have already been discarded. So it would NOT "represent a hazard threat that existed during a company's movement/hazard phase, but of which the company was not aware."

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panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?
Yes. "Could have been played" per the on-guard rules is separate from "in play" per the cannot be duplicated rules. Both copies of Foolish Words were not "in play" at the same time per the cannot be duplicated rules regardless of whether or not the 2nd copy could have been played during the M/H phase. This goes against the spirit of on-guard cards, but the "cannot be duplicated" rules are separate rules.

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Theo
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by Theo »

I'm on board with CoE #52. Foolish Words could not normally be revealed for most riddling/offering/influencing attempts (those that aren't declared along with playing a card that would potentially tap the site), and the wording unambiguously overrules that restriction, but should not overrule others without some indication.

---

A different reasoning from CDavis7M's response for (2), since I personally don't see how the actual rule wording could be read so that it matters (directly) whether the card would have been discarded earlier:
CoE #3 wrote:5. Spying Out the Land says that your opponent may show you hazards from his hand, and during your movement/hazard phase, may play ONLY those hazards. Now, does this refer to those SPECIFIC pieces of cardboard (the three cards that he shows you)? Or to "the card". If he shows me a Nameless Thing, and draws the other two during M/H phase, can he drop all three on me (assuming playability)?

*** Cards do not have memory of how they were played, or revealed in this instance. Therefore, using your example, your opponent would be able to play as many Nameless things on you as he/she pleases as long as they have a way of getting more into their hand.
The implication is that cards not actively affecting play (including those currently being manipulated by an effect) cannot retain their associations. Even if the replayed character is unique (and so has to be the same card), it is not the same target.

---

Regarding (3), I have a totally different opinion/rationale from CDavis7M. Underline mine:
CRF wrote:A card that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the copy in play is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
All other effects not mattering, if the Foolish Words was on the character prior to the start of the movement/hazard phase, then there was literally no opportunity for the new Foolish Words to have been played during the movement/hazard phase. Thus, one could not use the on-guard Foolish Words on the same target.

However, it would be ok to use on-guard Foolish Words if the first Foolish Words was played during that turn's movement/hazard phase. The on-guard Foolish Words could have been played earlier in the movement/hazard phase.

It would also be ok to use on-guard Foolish Words if the preexisting Foolish Words (already on the character before the movement/hazard phase) had been targeted for removal by an earlier Marvel's Told/Voices of Malice during the movement/hazard phase but then saved by Many Sorrows Befall (/Blind to the West/Ire of the East/Wrath of the West). Because there was a period when the new Foolish Words could have been played (when the other was targeted for removal).
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by Konrad Klar »

So:
Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4. If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares a riddling, offering, or influence attempt.
During his organization phase, a character with this card may tap to attempt to remove it. Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 7, discard this card.
would not make a sense?
I think that then it would not change a timing, targeting restrictions, but only conditions of revealing.
Whether anyone would interpret such text as description of playing the card not on target?
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CDavis7M
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by CDavis7M »

ICE Rules Digest 539 wrote:Question 1: Aragorn taps to play Iron Hill Dwarves, then Foolish Words is revealed from On-Guard, then i play The Sun Unveiled (GoM is in play). The quest that came up is, does TSU cancel Foolish Words before or after the influence check??
Answer 1: Before. It was played in response so resolves in reverse order.
-----
Question 2: Why can The Sun Unveiled target Foolish Words in the same chain of effects ("in response" implies the same chain)? Foolish words hasn't resolved yet, so it doesn't exist as a target, right? OR can you wait for FW to resolve, but play The Sun Unveiled before rolling the influence check?
Answer 2: The key to this mystery is that Foolish Words was played _on-guard_. On-guard cards are considered to have been declared and resolved immediately prior to the current chain of effects. So, since Foolish Words was resolved prior to the current chain (even though it actually reveals in response to the influence attempt) it is in play and can be canceled by The Sun Unveiled.

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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by Konrad Klar »

I know what "retroactively" means and I know that digests are not with me here.
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miguel
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Re: Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

Post by miguel »

I spoke with panotxa last night and this thread was posted in this section by mistake. If a mod reads this, feel free to move this thread to the Rules Questions section. Thanks! :)

As for the card text of Foolish Words, I can see the issue. I do think it's best to just follow the general guidelines of on-guards though (declared and resolved immediately prior to the current chain of effects), treating the text as just an additional way to reveal Foolish Words.

Rules Erratum: An on-guard card may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase. This means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
The first part of the above Erratum is open for interpretation, which makes it problematic. I think we should follow the second part, which is supposed to be the same thing, but is actually clear and precise. IMO this would present a check-list for revealing on-guards as follows:


(i) Are you allowed to reveal the on-guard card as per rules or card text?
(ii) Did all the targets of the on-guard card exist during the company's movement/hazard phase?
(iii) Are all the targets legal at the time of revealing the on-guard card?


Based on the above,
panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
No, it fails (ii).
panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?
No, it also fails (ii). As Theo already put it, it's not the same target.
panotxa wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm
(3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?
Yes, it clears the check-list!


I'll present one additional scenario of my own that I think is of interest. Company A and company B are moving to the same site. Company A goes first, and I place Foolish Words on-guard. Then company B moves to the same site, and at the end of all movement/hazard phases the companies join. Next the newly formed company AB enters the site, and a character originally in company B tries to influence a faction. Can Foolish Words be revealed?
***** On-guards are placed for companies, and while Foolish Words was originally placed for company A, that company no longer exists, so the on-guard is now there for company AB. I would suggest that company AB's movement/hazard phase be considered a combination of company A's and B's movement/hazard phases. This would make revealing Foolish Words legal, because while the influencing character did not exist as a target during company A's movement/hazard phase, it did exist during company B's movement/hazard phase, and as a result the character existed as a target during company AB's movement/hazard phase.

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