Foolish Words on-guard on a character played through WHCtK/ACM

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panotxa
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Dear fellow players,

I have one doubt that I hope I'll solve once and for all after this inquiry...

(1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
Rules Erratum: An on-guard card may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase. This means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
Foolish Words:
Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4. If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares a riddling, offering, or influence attempt.
During his organization phase, a character with this card may tap to attempt to remove it. Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 7, discard this card.
If I strictly follow the Rules Erratum, it seems that Foolish Words can't target that character... but reading Foolish Words card text I may understand that "card text overrides rules" and no need that character was a valid target during movement/hazard phase...

(2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?

This scenario, in an online tournament some years ago, in a game between Brian Min and Manuel Cabezalí, was "ruled" that on-guard Foolish Word's couldn't target the bouncing character.

(3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?

Thanks!
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Konrad Klar
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Text of Foolish Words overrides the normal conditions of revealing AND playing of on-guard cards.

This means that the card can be revealed/played even if its target did not exist in M/H phase, AND that its timing is different, i.e. it is played when revealed, not retroactively, so it cannot be removed by Marvels Told played in response, AND it may be played/revealed in response to declaration of any influence/offering/riddling attempt, not only in response to a declaration of influence attempt against a faction, or in response to declaration of card that potentially taps a site.
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panotxa
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Treating Foolish Words this way Konrad contradicts Netrep Digest 52, which I think is official, isn’t it?
After declaring an influence attempt on a faction, opponent reveals
Foolish Words as on-guard card; player influencing plays Marvels Told.
Is Foolish Words discarded immediately or after the attempt?

*** It is discarded immediately, because the Foolish Words was
considered in play by the time the influence attempt was announced.
CRF, Turn Sequence Rulings, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards:
A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were
both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects
during which it was revealed.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 2:39 pm Text of Foolish Words overrides the normal conditions of revealing AND playing of on-guard cards.

This means that the card can be revealed/played even if its target did not exist in M/H phase, AND that its timing is different, i.e. it is played when revealed, not retroactively, so it cannot be removed by Marvels Told played in response, AND it may be played/revealed in response to declaration of any influence/offering/riddling attempt, not only in response to a declaration of influence attempt against a faction, or in response to declaration of card that potentially taps a site.
The statement "revealed and played" in Foolish Words does not override the retroactive timing of cards revealed on-guard. The phrase "and played" is needed because Foolish Words is a targeted permanent event that is "Playable on a character." Other cards describing how/when they can be "revealed" (but not played) on-guard are short events or non-targeted long/permanent events that do not need to be played on any particular target.

Foolish Words revealed on-guard is retroactively played on a character and it can be targeted by Marvels Told, etc.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed May 06, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CDavis7M
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panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
No because of the Rules Erratum you mentioned. The character did not exist during the M/H phase.

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panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?
No because if Foolish Words was played during the M/H phase and then the character was removed to hand using Call of Home, then Foolish Words would have been discarded already.
ICE wrote:The spirit of the on-guard card is to represent a hazard threat that existed during a company's movement/hazard phase, but of which the company was not aware. The actual rule that portrays this spirit is: an on-guard may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase--this is a slight modification from the rule printed on page page 61 of the METW Unlimited Rulesbook. Practically, this means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
The requirement that all targets exist during the M/H phase is just a secondary implementation of the spirit of the on-guard rules. Foolish Words cannot be revealed and played on-guard on a character that was removed to hand by Call of Home because Foolish Words would have already been discarded. So it would NOT "represent a hazard threat that existed during a company's movement/hazard phase, but of which the company was not aware."

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panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?
Yes. "Could have been played" per the on-guard rules is separate from "in play" per the cannot be duplicated rules. Both copies of Foolish Words were not "in play" at the same time per the cannot be duplicated rules regardless of whether or not the 2nd copy could have been played during the M/H phase. This goes against the spirit of on-guard cards, but the "cannot be duplicated" rules are separate rules.
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Theo
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I'm on board with CoE #52. Foolish Words could not normally be revealed for most riddling/offering/influencing attempts (those that aren't declared along with playing a card that would potentially tap the site), and the wording unambiguously overrules that restriction, but should not overrule others without some indication.

---

A different reasoning from CDavis7M's response for (2), since I personally don't see how the actual rule wording could be read so that it matters (directly) whether the card would have been discarded earlier:
CoE #3 wrote:5. Spying Out the Land says that your opponent may show you hazards from his hand, and during your movement/hazard phase, may play ONLY those hazards. Now, does this refer to those SPECIFIC pieces of cardboard (the three cards that he shows you)? Or to "the card". If he shows me a Nameless Thing, and draws the other two during M/H phase, can he drop all three on me (assuming playability)?

*** Cards do not have memory of how they were played, or revealed in this instance. Therefore, using your example, your opponent would be able to play as many Nameless things on you as he/she pleases as long as they have a way of getting more into their hand.
The implication is that cards not actively affecting play (including those currently being manipulated by an effect) cannot retain their associations. Even if the replayed character is unique (and so has to be the same card), it is not the same target.

---

Regarding (3), I have a totally different opinion/rationale from CDavis7M. Underline mine:
CRF wrote:A card that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the copy in play is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
All other effects not mattering, if the Foolish Words was on the character prior to the start of the movement/hazard phase, then there was literally no opportunity for the new Foolish Words to have been played during the movement/hazard phase. Thus, one could not use the on-guard Foolish Words on the same target.

However, it would be ok to use on-guard Foolish Words if the first Foolish Words was played during that turn's movement/hazard phase. The on-guard Foolish Words could have been played earlier in the movement/hazard phase.

It would also be ok to use on-guard Foolish Words if the preexisting Foolish Words (already on the character before the movement/hazard phase) had been targeted for removal by an earlier Marvel's Told/Voices of Malice during the movement/hazard phase but then saved by Many Sorrows Befall (/Blind to the West/Ire of the East/Wrath of the West). Because there was a period when the new Foolish Words could have been played (when the other was targeted for removal).
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Konrad Klar
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So:
Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4. If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares a riddling, offering, or influence attempt.
During his organization phase, a character with this card may tap to attempt to remove it. Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 7, discard this card.
would not make a sense?
I think that then it would not change a timing, targeting restrictions, but only conditions of revealing.
Whether anyone would interpret such text as description of playing the card not on target?
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CDavis7M
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ICE Rules Digest 539 wrote:Question 1: Aragorn taps to play Iron Hill Dwarves, then Foolish Words is revealed from On-Guard, then i play The Sun Unveiled (GoM is in play). The quest that came up is, does TSU cancel Foolish Words before or after the influence check??
Answer 1: Before. It was played in response so resolves in reverse order.
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Question 2: Why can The Sun Unveiled target Foolish Words in the same chain of effects ("in response" implies the same chain)? Foolish words hasn't resolved yet, so it doesn't exist as a target, right? OR can you wait for FW to resolve, but play The Sun Unveiled before rolling the influence check?
Answer 2: The key to this mystery is that Foolish Words was played _on-guard_. On-guard cards are considered to have been declared and resolved immediately prior to the current chain of effects. So, since Foolish Words was resolved prior to the current chain (even though it actually reveals in response to the influence attempt) it is in play and can be canceled by The Sun Unveiled.
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Konrad Klar
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I know what "retroactively" means and I know that digests are not with me here.
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miguel
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I spoke with panotxa last night and this thread was posted in this section by mistake. If a mod reads this, feel free to move this thread to the Rules Questions section. Thanks! :)

As for the card text of Foolish Words, I can see the issue. I do think it's best to just follow the general guidelines of on-guards though (declared and resolved immediately prior to the current chain of effects), treating the text as just an additional way to reveal Foolish Words.

Rules Erratum: An on-guard card may only be revealed if it could have also been played during the movement/hazard phase. This means all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed.
The first part of the above Erratum is open for interpretation, which makes it problematic. I think we should follow the second part, which is supposed to be the same thing, but is actually clear and precise. IMO this would present a check-list for revealing on-guards as follows:


(i) Are you allowed to reveal the on-guard card as per rules or card text?
(ii) Did all the targets of the on-guard card exist during the company's movement/hazard phase?
(iii) Are all the targets legal at the time of revealing the on-guard card?


Based on the above,
panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (1) Can Foolish Words be revealed as an on-guard card played on a company where a character, which tries to make an influence attempt, was played in site phase through We Have Come to Kill or A Chance Meeting?
No, it fails (ii).
panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (2) And what if the character was in the company during m/h phase, is sent to the player's hand (eg: Call of Home) and played again in sites phase?
No, it also fails (ii). As Theo already put it, it's not the same target.
panotxa wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm (3) And something slightly different... what if the character was in the company during m/h phase with a Foolish Words on it, the player plays Voices of Malice / Marvels Told on that card... can a Foolish Words on guard target this character which hasn't been a valid objective during "some time" in m/h phase because Foolish Words can't be duplicated?
Yes, it clears the check-list!


I'll present one additional scenario of my own that I think is of interest. Company A and company B are moving to the same site. Company A goes first, and I place Foolish Words on-guard. Then company B moves to the same site, and at the end of all movement/hazard phases the companies join. Next the newly formed company AB enters the site, and a character originally in company B tries to influence a faction. Can Foolish Words be revealed?
***** On-guards are placed for companies, and while Foolish Words was originally placed for company A, that company no longer exists, so the on-guard is now there for company AB. I would suggest that company AB's movement/hazard phase be considered a combination of company A's and B's movement/hazard phases. This would make revealing Foolish Words legal, because while the influencing character did not exist as a target during company A's movement/hazard phase, it did exist during company B's movement/hazard phase, and as a result the character existed as a target during company AB's movement/hazard phase.
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Mordakai
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Hello people:

Regarding this issue, I think the main point has not been propperly approached. Foolish Words has a paragraph that literally says:
If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt.
And the rules say, about revealing on-guard cards:
An on-guard card may be revealed when the company plays a resource that potentially taps the site. The card must affect the company or a character in the company that site phase.
My limited brain tells me: "why writing that paragraph in the card, if the rules already permit such revealing mechanism?" There must be any difference, if not, it's redundant information that makes no sense and consumes ink in Carta Mundi.

Then I see other cards with specific paragraphs to apply when revealed on-guard, such as Near to hear a Whisper, which literally allows you to reveal it from on-guard if the company does not enter the site; or Searching Eye, which allows you to cancel a scout resource that did not existed in m/h phase. Are you telling me that if I reveal a Heedless Revelry from on-guard after you play an item it will tap all characters in the company except that ugly orc that entered with WHCTK before playing the item? Just because it was not present in m/h fase?

I don't see any use of that paragraph if not for (implicit, not explicit, for sure) telling us that ANY character that is declaring that influence attempt may be the target, regardless of his existence or not in the company in the m/h phase.

Am I so twisted-thinker?
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Shapeshifter
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Mordakai wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:49 pm Foolish Words has a paragraph that literally says:
If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt.
And the rules say, about revealing on-guard cards:
An on-guard card may be revealed when the company plays a resource that potentially taps the site. The card must affect the company or a character in the company that site phase.
My limited brain tells me: "why writing that paragraph in the card, if the rules already permit such revealing mechanism?" There must be any difference, if not, it's redundant information that makes no sense and consumes ink in Carta Mundi.
Most times Foolish Words is played in order to modify an influence check against a faction that potentially taps the site. In those cases the sentences "If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt." will be redundant. But there is so much more to Foolish Words. I think only because of the additional info "If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt." it could be revealed as on guard card in the following cases:
  • in response to a declared Riddle Game
  • in response to a declared influence attempt on an opponent's ressource
  • in response to Token of Goodwill or Riddling Talk played on the auto-attack
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Mordakai
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Totally agree with that detail, but still something bothers me: the paragraph is still there, so why can't I play those Foolish Words in a character that entered that site phase with WHCTK/ACM? If I cannot play it on him, it directly contradicts the paragraph, that says that I can reveal and play it on a character that tries that influence/riddle/whatever check.

Again, if not such paragraph was in the card, I totally agree that you cannot play it on a character that was not present in the m/h phase, but it's an specific way of playing that card on guard, it would be contradictory to me that a rule in the rulebook supersedes the text on the card.
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Shapeshifter
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To be honest I am not 100% sure about this, too. My understanding is, however, that Foolish Words' card text doesn't explicitely overrule that "all targets of the card must have existed during the movement/hazard phase in order for the card to be revealed". So it is not a simple case of "card over rule".
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CDavis7M
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Mordakai wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:49 pm Foolish Words has a paragraph that literally says:
If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt.
And the rules say, about revealing on-guard cards:
An on-guard card may be revealed when the company plays a resource that potentially taps the site. The card must affect the company or a character in the company that site phase.
My limited brain tells me: "why writing that paragraph in the card, if the rules already permit such revealing mechanism?" There must be any difference, if not, it's redundant information that makes no sense and consumes ink in Carta Mundi.
The mechanism is not redundant. Foolish Words does not "directly affects the company or a character in the company" which is a requirement for revealing an on-guard card. Foolish Words does not modify any attribute of the character card nor does it create an action that affects the card (e.g., discard from corruption, etc.). Because of this, Foolish Words needs to have the statement "If placed on-guard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares a riddling, offering, or influence attempt." Otherwise it could not be revealed on-guard. It's true that the CRF states " You may also reveal a card in response to such an attempt that affects the actual influence attempt." But that is a ruling from the middle of 1997 Foolish Words was published in 96 and maybe designed even earlier.
Mordakai wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:49 pmAre you telling me that if I reveal a Heedless Revelry from on-guard after you play an item it will tap all characters in the company except that ugly orc that entered with WHCTK before playing the item? Just because it was not present in m/h fase?
Heedless Revelry states "Tap all untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard characters in the company." This is a non-targeted effect. The character that entered play by WHCTK will still be tapped.
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