King under the Mountain

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
Post Reply
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

The Dragons: King under the Mountain
Resource: Permanent-event

Unique. Playable on Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II if his company has defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack other than Eärcaraxë at Home. The target Dwarf receives +5 against Dwarves and Dwarf factions. The site where the Dragon was defeated becomes a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold for all purposes and has no dragon automatic attacks. Only Dwarves may play items at this site.


Proposed erratum:

"Unique. Playable on Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II if he was in company when it defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack other than Eärcaraxë at Home. The target Dwarf receives +5 against Dwarves and Dwarf factions. The site where the Dragon was defeated is treated as a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold for all purposes. Only Dwarves may play items at this site."

Changed parts underlined.

The site where the Dragon was defeated should not become Border-hold and Dwarf-hold permanently, but only as long as King under the Mountain is in play. In other words "becomes a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold" is result applied to site, "is treated as Border-hold and Dwarf-hold" is effect under which the site exists.
"has no dragon automatic attacks" is removed, because it is meaningless in practice. Ironically thanks to King under the Mountain and Whole Village Roused, dragon automatic attack may be recreated.
Additionally:
Currently Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II may join "company [that] has defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack" and in this way may fulfill the requirements of King under the Mountain, benefiting from work done by others.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:40 am The site where the Dragon was defeated should not become Border-hold and Dwarf-hold permanently, but only as long as King under the Mountain is in play. In other words "becomes a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold" is result applied to site, "is treated as Border-hold and Dwarf-hold" is effect under which the site exists.
But:
CRF wrote:If a card leaves active play, including being returned to a player's hand, it immediately ceases having an effect on play.
I don't see any basis in the rules for treating "becomes" differently from "treated as" in this context.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

The Lidless Eye: Where There's a Whip
Resource: Short-event

Playable on an untapped Orc or Troll character bearing a Whip. Each tapped character in the bearer's company with a mind and prowess less than the bearer's makes a body check modified by -2. Failing the body check wounds, but does not eliminate the character. Each unwounded character in the company becomes untapped.
"Becoming untapped"'s result does not disappear when Where There's a Whip leaves active play.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:15 am
The Lidless Eye: Where There's a Whip
Resource: Short-event

Playable on an untapped Orc or Troll character bearing a Whip. Each tapped character in the bearer's company with a mind and prowess less than the bearer's makes a body check modified by -2. Failing the body check wounds, but does not eliminate the character. Each unwounded character in the company becomes untapped.
"Becoming untapped"'s result does not disappear when Where There's a Whip leaves active play.
First, this use of "becomes" here doesn't support the reasoning in the first post.

But also there is a difference between an effect that re-positions a card and an effect that doesn't. There's no record keeping in the rules. KUTM's border-hold effect doesn't re-position any cards in the game. This effect can be removed from play when KUTM leaves play. The players don't need to take an action to change to the game to revert this effect -- they simply forget it existed.

The "becomes untapped" effect of WTaW happens once, if at all, at resolution. The "untapping effect" cannot leave play because it was never in play, it was simply a change to some card's position. The players can see what happened when. It's done. Again, the players don't need to remember anything. Allies discarded by RFP don't magically appear again if RFP is discarded. Discarding changed the ally's position, they are in the discard now, nothing left to do.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

I agree with Konrad that "becomes" language should indicate a one-time effect. I'm not convinced that the removal of King Under the Mountain should not keep the site a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold permanently, though.

There are many other cards with this same problem. To my knowledge, none of them can be removed from play once in play without the card they affected also leaving play, which would cause the affected card to revert to its original state anyway.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:58 am I agree with Konrad that "becomes" language should indicate a one-time effect.
But what about maintaining your standards:
Theo wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:16 am But by all means give us a semantic parse tree if you think your claim is in there, if you actually care to help the community grow in wisdom rather than decree the community bend before your oracular knowledge.

Otherwise, enough said.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Theo wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:58 am There are many other cards with this same problem. To my knowledge, none of them can be removed from play once in play without the card they affected also leaving play, which would cause the affected card to revert to its original state anyway.
Hazard permanent-events that affect host may be discarded by other means (e.g. Marvels Told). Some resource permanent-events may be discarded if played with Crown of Flowers.

The problem could be solved by class action:

"A card played on other card, or that is with other card, gives the other card some abilities as long it is on/with other card, or until the abilities are replaced by abilities given by next such card that resolved later."

It is what it is played anyway. Magic Ring of Courage does not give its bearer Warrior Skill permanently.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Proposed erratum:

"Unique. Playable on Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II if he was in company when it defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack other than Eärcaraxë at Home. The target Dwarf receives +5 against Dwarves and Dwarf factions. The site where the Dragon was defeated is treated as a Border-hold and Dwarf-hold for all purposes. Only Dwarves may play items at this site."

Changed parts underlined.

Currently Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II may join "company [that] has defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack" and in this way may fulfill the requirements of King under the Mountain, benefiting from work done by others.

Updated first post.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:08 pm Currently Balin, Dáin II, Thorin II, or Thráin II may join "company [that] has defeated an at home Dragon manifestation attack" and in this way may fulfill the requirements of King under the Mountain, benefiting from work done by others.
The card text has the past tense verb "defeated." What do you think is the subject of that verb?
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

"an at home Dragon manifestation attack other than Eärcaraxë at Home."
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “CoE Rules & Errata Community Proposals”