Greed (clarification)

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Konrad Klar
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Playable on a site. Until the end of the turn, each non-Hobbit, non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character at the site must make a corruption check each time an item is played at the site. The character playing an item need not make a corruption check. When a character makes one of these checks, it is modified by subtracting the that the item would normally give the character if he controlled it. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.
CRF. Errata (Cards), Greed wrote:Is triggered by a special ring item being played, but not by items being transferred.
I propose removing it completely.

A special ring item played in result of test is not played at site. It may be played even if company is not at site and eventually by character at site.
Nothing stops a character controlled by FW player from playing a hero special ring item if the character is in company at minion site, or vice versa.
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CDavis7M
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There is the old on-guard language about the item being "keyed to the site". Which seems to mean that it is playable as listed on the site, or by name. Clearly a special ring is not "keyed to" the site.

Still, it is an item and it is played with a character in a company at a site -- it's played at the site.
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Konrad Klar
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I see a fundamental difference between a resources played at site and a resource played by a character at site.
Marvels Told, Voices of Malice, special ring item may be played by character at site, but the resources are not played at site; they may be also played by character not at site (in route).
Glamdring, High Helm are played at site; and they are also played by character at site.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:44 pm I see a fundamental difference between a resources played at site and a resource played by a character at site.
Which rule are you basing this on?

I see a fundamental difference between the old on-guard rule "a card keyed to the site" and "a card played at the site". Under the old on-guard rules, a ring special item would not be "keyed to" the site, but it would be "played at" the site (at least per the CRF ruling). Whereas a major item would be both "keyed to" the site (listing major items as playable) at "at the site"

Although, there is also:
Await the Advent of Allies
Read "is wounded" as "becomes wounded."
"Playing a resource at the site" means playing a resource that taps the site or a resource that requires the site.
from:
>2) What does "play a resource at the site mean" in AtAoA? Playing a resource that taps the site or what?
Play a resource that taps the site, or requires the site to be played.

>Would playing a Lucky Strike on the character discard AtAoA?
No.

>Would playing Houses of Healing ON the site discard AtAoA?
Yes.
Special Rings don't fit this AtAoA ruling.

But Greed has numerous rulings on its own.

From: sfr...@comet.net (Scott Frazer)
Subject: Re: [METW] Official question on playing Minor Items
Date: 1996/02/19

Question: As close as I remember, the exact wording was: "You can play a Minor Item ANY TIME another item is played."
>Since it is so rare to see such open-ended rulings, my questions are as follows:
>1. Could a Minor Item also be played with Lucky Search?
Yes.
>2. What about when I use a Dwarven Ring to play an item?
Yes.
>3. What about when I successfully test a ring?

No. You'll have to trust me one this one... even though playing a gold
ring after a test will trigger a greed
, or a lure of expedience, you do not
get to play a minor item just for testing a ring...

exception: Ringlore... you played this resource card (which requires
information cards to be playable) successfully, so you may play one
additional minor item.

-----------------

From: sfr...@comet.net (Scott Frazer)
Subject: Re: [METW] Picky Card Questions
Date: 1996/04/11

>While double checking all of the pages for MECLU (Middle Earth Card LookUp)
>I came accross the following (kinda) picky questions. On each page I will
>have rulings on the particular cards, and I thought that these should be
>included:
>
>A Friend or Three: May be played on a 1 person company?
>What if no influence being made?

Yes, it only give +1 though...
It only modifies the check, not the influence, so you must have a check
being made.

. . .

>Anduril
>- Narsil can be anywhere when it becomes Anduril (Poof).
>
>Greed
>- Is triggered when a special ring is played

>- Is not triggered when an item in play is transfered (See Lure of
>Expedience).
>
>Healing Herbs
>- Can be used to heal a wounded character before a body check.

(healing herbs) This is incorrect. The body check is the first declared action in the
chain of effect immediately following the strike dice roll, and the
only actions that can be played in response are ones that directly
affect the body check dice roll. Healing Herbs does not qualify, so
you would have to wait until after the body check.

----------

From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [MECCG] Roving I & Greed Q
Date: 1997/08/04

>>> Can 'Greed' be played on-guard and revealed after the successful
>>> testing (with 'Secrets of their Forging') of a gold ring item.
>>
>>I know the answer to this one is no. You can't reveal an on-guard card
>>in response to a successful ring test (and subsequent playing of a ring
>>item with that ring).
>>
>>Puff the Magic Dragon
>>pt...@erols.com
>>
>
>Wait a minute, Lure of Expedience is triggered by the play of rings after
>a ring test, why not Greed?


It's two different things. Greed will trigger a corruption check from
the play of a ring special item after a test
, but that does not mean
you can reveal an on-guard card in response to a ring special item
being played. The conditions for Greed forcing a corruption check
are broader than those for revealing on-guard cards.

----------
ICE Digest 90

[Two companies, A and B, at the same Wizardhaven with seperate site cards]


[Greed played on B's version of the site]


>Suppose now that a second Greed was played on-guard at the WT wizardhaven
>card moved to by A.
>After a character in B has played the palantir and that Greed was revealed
>and resolved, fallen Pallando (from A) plays Wizard's Ring at A's version
>of the site. Can the second Greed be revealed or would that be considered
>duplicating Greed at the same site which is not allowed?


It is considered a different site for the cannot be duplicated.

---------

From: Gnome <7633...@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 537
> 4) Does Greed affect a ring test? Such as when that prec gold ring
>turns into a Dwarven Ring?

Yes.
It comes down to the fact that Greed is "playable on a site" and so "an item played at the site" is more of a limitation preventing items played at other sites from triggering Greed, instead of a requirement that the item actually be keyed to the site.
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Konrad Klar
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Blurry logic and sloppy wording does not serve a comfort of playing.
If players know that some resource is played at site or that the resource is not played at site, they have space for planning that cannot be provided by inconsistency.

Players who know that a special ring item (played in result of test) is not played at site, should know that the item may be played regardless of alignment of a site occupied by company of the bearer. They also should know that consistently playing such item is not considered playing it at site for any other purpose, including a triggering of cc from Greed, for example.

There are two approaches against a sloppy wording. Sanctioning it or correcting it.
First approach leads to augmenting an inconsistency.

EDIT: "can space" > "have space"
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Theo
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:53 pm A special ring item played in result of test is not played at site. It may be played even if company is not at site and eventually by character at site.
Nothing stops a character controlled by FW player from playing a hero special ring item if the character is in company at minion site, or vice versa.
That a special ring item can be played while not at a site doesn't mean that when it is played at a site it doesn't count as being played at a site.

There is no restriction for Fallen Wizards because the normal rules for playing ring special items don't target/effect or tap the site. Fallen Wizard restrictions:
MEWH wrote:Targeting Site and Resource Cards
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

Playing Resources at a Site
In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:05 am That a special ring item can be played while not at a site doesn't mean that when it is played at a site it doesn't count as being played at a site.
Right. Hypothetical test card may behave differently, depending whether used by character at site or by character not at site.
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Theo
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Oh, you read the CRF "Is triggered by a special ring item being played" as grounds for the check needing to happen for moving companies? I don't see that as being a valid interpretation. The CRF slots into the "an item is played" concept, and does not have any language that could supersede the original "at the site" requirement.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:15 am Oh, you read the CRF "Is triggered by a special ring item being played" as grounds for the check needing to happen for moving companies?
My answer is: No.
Are you asking me or CDavis7M?
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Theo
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I was asking you. I am trying to understand the original post. You propose removing the CRF ruling, then give two statements that seem to have no bearing on the CRF ruling unless (for your first statement:) you are concerned that some may interpret the ruling as causing checks even for moving companies. But if that is not your concern, maybe those statements were just for flavor and your proposal to remove has no explanation?
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Konrad Klar
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My concern is not acknowledging a distinction between item played at site and an item not played at site but by/with character at site.
Or acknowledging the distinction but not treating its consequences consistently.

If the distinction exists and is treated consistently then, for example:

Special ring item played by/with character at site in result of test does not trigger ccs from Greed.
Alignment of items played in result of discarding Necklace of Girion is not concern; it does not need to match an alignment of site.
Alignment of item played in result of Lucky Search is not concern; it does not need to match an alignment of site.
For the same reason Hoard status of the above mentioned items does not matter.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:07 am My concern is not acknowledging a distinction between item played at site and an item not played at site but by/with character at site.
The rules don't make this distinction.
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:07 am Special ring item played by/with character at site in result of test does not trigger ccs from Greed.
Alignment of items played in result of discarding Necklace of Girion is not concern; it does not need to match an alignment of site.
Alignment of item played in result of Lucky Search is not concern; it does not need to match an alignment of site.
For the same reason Hoard status of the above mentioned items does not matter.
The MEWH rules on alignment matching are distinct and do not rely on being the item being "played at the site." Instead that rule relies on the item being one that "would normally tap a site."
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Konrad Klar
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Playing Resources at a Site—In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that
would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be
hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site
card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and a minion site
This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the
site phase that tap the site.
Little funny thing is the title of chapter: Playing Resources at a Site.
If the title is meaningless then I do not know which site and which resource to be played are talked about.
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CDavis7M
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:22 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:08 pm
Playing Resources at a Site—In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that
would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be
hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site
card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and a minion site
This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the
site phase that tap the site.
Little funny thing is the title of chapter: Playing Resources at a Site.
If the title is meaningless then I do not know which site and which resource to be played are talked about.
A good example of a common misinterpretation of the rules that leads to misunderstanding of the game. There are lots of examples of this here, on MECCG, and in the CoE digets. People see a statement that is not limiting but then they read it as implying a restriction that isn't there -- but the restriction isn't there.

The heading says "Playing Resources at a Site" and it describes resources that are played at a site -- resources that would normally tap a site are played at a site. This section is describing the play of resources. It is not somehow defining or limiting what resources are considered to be "played at a site." Just because all of the resources described in this section are "played at a site" does not mean that other resources that would not "normally tap a site" cannot be "played at a site." This should be obvious given the numerous examples. Nothing in this subsection or the rules suggests that Ring Special Items are not "played at a site."

This same misconception (reading limitations that aren't there) is the reason why Passive Conditions are misunderstood, why playing characters using resources is misunderstood, etc.

----------
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:08 pm If the title is meaningless then I do not know which site and which resource to be played are talked about.
This subsection tells you exactly which resources to be played are being talked about: "resources that would normally tap a site"

By the way, you forgot to mention how playing Ring Special Items is also described in the section titled "Playing Resources at a Site." Hmm.
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Konrad Klar
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:08 pm Little funny thing is the title of chapter: Playing Resources at a Site.
If the title is meaningless then I do not know which site and which resource to be played are talked about.
In other words:
If the rule does not say about a resource to be played at a site and about a site at which a resource has to be played, then I do not see any relation between the mentioned " resource to be played" and "site".
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