Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:05 pm The only way for the rules to be consistent is to actually read the words used and give them their proper weight. "Only" means exclusively, nothing else. It is not merely an allowance. There is NO OTHER way to play a creature besides the rules given. This is not merely an allowance for playing a creature according to some conditions. It is a hard restriction. "Must" means that something should necessarily be done. Keying MUST be done.

A restriction in the rules always applies unless there is specific card text to overrule it. An allowance in the rules based on some set of conditions does not prevent a different allowance based on a different set of conditions. This is how the game works. It's how the rules were written and it's how the rulings were made.
Then redefine the term "playing a card". Or state it straightly: Undead attacking in result Exhalation of Decay is not played, only is brought into play.
Then resolve dilemma: as not being played the Undead can evade Stealth's effect, but Exhalation of Decay checks whether target Undead can attack.

Is it OK that the check says NO, while actually the Undead as not being played CAN attack?
Or maybe for the reason that the Undead will not be played, the check should say YES and the Undead CAN attack regardless of Stealth's effect?
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CDavis7M
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You're not finding consistency because you're not reading all of the words carefully.

It's right there in the rules and card text. A creature cannot attack without being keyed. Exhalation of Decay asks whether the creature can attack. So it must be keyed.

A creature that cannot attack because of Stealth cannot attack using Exhalation of Decay because EoD specifically requires the creature to be able to attack. Stealth prevents Exhalation of Decay.

On the other hand, Long Dark Reach has a creature attack regardless of the playability requirements. You have to read the words and give them weight.
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CDavis7M
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Yup.
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 107
Date: 1998/07/10

>Exhalation of Decay: "Playable on an Undead hazard creature in your
>discard pile. If target Undead can attack, bring it into play as a
>creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard
>limit). The attack's prowess is modified by -1." - How does this
>compare to Long Dark Reach? Is the attack created by EoD considered a
>hazard-creature attack or not? If so, is it considered to be keyed
>normally
? If not, would this make a Barrow-wight attacking a
>minion-company at Mount Doom via EoD non-detainment?

It's a hazard creature attack, keyed to whatever made it playable
in the first place
.
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Konrad Klar
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keyed to whatever made it playable
in the first place.
Purpose of the clarification is a determining to what and when the creature is keyed.
Do you suggest that keying of the creature is decided at declaration of Exhalation of Decay?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:44 pm
keyed to whatever made it playable
in the first place.
Purpose of the clarification is a determining to what and when the creature is keyed.
Do you suggest that keying of the creature is decided at declaration of Exhalation of Decay?
I don't suggest anything. I follow the rules.
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Konrad Klar
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Thanks for understanding and for explaining.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:49 pm Thanks for understanding and for explaining.
I already posted the rules above and explained them.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:44 pm Do you suggest that keying of the creature is decided at declaration of Exhalation of Decay?
Here is the rule:
When to Key.PNG
When to Key.PNG (59.95 KiB) Viewed 3906 times
And clarifications from the CRF:
Playing Hazards

If a creature hazard resolves and there are no longer any instances of the
region or site it was keyed to, then the creature is immediately discarded
for no effect on play. If any instances of the region or site it was keyed
to are in the site path when the creature resolves, the creature takes
effect (even if those instances are not the ones that were there when the
creature was declared).
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Konrad Klar
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For me it seems to be compliant with my proposal, at least in part:

Similarly, if a creature is being played according to even that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:53 am Similarly, if a creature is being played according to even that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition.

In both cases a hazard player chooses the condition when the action resolves."
I'm not even sure what the first sentence is saying.

But the second sentence contradicts the rules.

And, if the idea of the first sentence is to clarify these event cards, it's doing a worse job than the rules since it creates additional confusion because:
  • Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall are not events "that allow to immediately plat the creature"
  • Some creatures attack without being played (as discussed)
  • Some creatures are brought into play without being played
  • Some creatures attack without being in play
The existing rules sufficiently cover all of these situations.
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Konrad Klar
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The clarification in part:

Similarly, if a creature is being played according to even that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition.

assumes that the creature attacking according to Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Out of the Black Sky is played. Albeit not in separate chain of effects but in result of the cards.
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Konrad Klar
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Fixed a typo in first post ("even" to "event")
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:12 pm Similarly, if a creature is being played according to even that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition.
There are a few issues here. I wonder if this was supposed to say something along the lines of: "...played according to an event that allows the player to immediately play the creature..."
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:12 pm assumes that the creature attacking according to Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Out of the Black Sky is played.
No, the creatures attacking according to Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Out of the Black Sky are NOT "played" because "play" means from your hand according to the rules (potentially augmented by other effects).

These cards do different things because they use different words.
  • Long Dark Reach: The attacking creature is "revealed" from the play deck, it is not played. The card of the creature that attacks is in play because there is nothing about it being out of play -- it was revealed and then attacks the company. The requirements for attacking with creatures, including keying creatures, are not used because Long Dark Reach specifically states "regardless of its playability requirements."
  • Exhalation of Decay: The creature is in your discard, it was not played. The requirements for attacking with a creature, including keying, apply to this attack because Exhalation of Decay specifically states "if target Undead can attack." The creature card is "in play" because the card text specifically states that it is brought into play.
  • In Great Wrath: The Nazgul is in your discard, it is not played. The target Nazgul must meet the requirements for an attacking creature, including keying, because the card text specifically states "that could immediately attack." The Nazgul creature card is NOT "in play" because the target Nazgul in in the discard pile and there is nothing in the card text about bringing the Nazgul into play. The Nazgul creature card is specifically out of play.
  • Out of the Black Sky: The Nazgul is a permanent-event, its not a creature that was played. The Nazgul attacking by this card must meet the requirements for an attacking creature, including keying, because the card states "that could immediately attack as if it were in your hand as a creature." The Nazgul is "in play" because it was already in play as a Permanent-event and now it specifically "attacks as a creature from its permanent-event state"
The cards work exactly how they say. These cards work differently because they use different words.
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Konrad Klar
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CRF, Errata (Cards), Long Dark Reach wrote:The creature does not count against the hazard limit. A creature must be played if
there is one available.
You may (do not) want to include it in your list.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:21 pm
CRF, Errata (Cards), Long Dark Reach wrote:The creature does not count against the hazard limit. A creature must be played if
there is one available.
You may (do not) want to include it in your list.
This ruling on Long Dark Reach is not "Errata." I don't know why you quote it as "CRF, Errata (Cards), Long Dark Reach." It's from the "Card Errata and Rulings" section, not from "Complete Errata Listing - Card Errata".

And again, you are reading too much into it. By the rules and the card text, there is no creature that is "played" by Long Dark Reach. The CRF explicitly does not change the rules or the card text on Long Dark Reach. The CRF ruling says "play" but it means "attack." It's saying that you can't reveal a creature that could attack and decide not to attack. Sure the CRF could be more clear, but don't be confused by casual speech and secondary rulings, it is the primary rules that matter.
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [METW] Confimations and Reversals
Date: 1997/03/17

2) Long Dark Reach: The creature merely needs to be keyable to a region
that is not a Coastal Sea region. If it is keyed to such a region by
name only, that is sufficient. Any Doors of Night effects apply to its
playability. And, yes, you must play a creature if there is a playable
one revealed.
From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 32
Date: 1998/01/19

>Also, on a similar line, does stealth stop the play of a hazard creature
>from Long Dark Reach??? Since the playing of a hazard creature is a
>secondary effect of LDR, it's been a tough one to call here...

No, the creature is never "played." It is just revealed and attacks.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:11 pm This ruling on Long Dark Reach is not "Errata." I don't know why you quote it as "CRF, Errata (Cards), Long Dark Reach." It's from the "Card Errata and Rulings" section, not from "Complete Errata Listing - Card Errata".
I am use to using that PDF http://meccg.tolkien.com.pl/forum/downl ... e.php?id=6 .
Entry for Long Dark Reach is located in CRF, Errata (Cards) of the document,
I agree that it is not an errata.

P.S. For some reasons it does not work on one click, use Open in new tab from context menu.
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