Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:36 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:11 pm This ruling on Long Dark Reach is not "Errata." I don't know why you quote it as "CRF, Errata (Cards), Long Dark Reach." It's from the "Card Errata and Rulings" section, not from "Complete Errata Listing - Card Errata".
I am use to using that PDF http://meccg.tolkien.com.pl/forum/downl ... e.php?id=6 .
Entry for Long Dark Reach is located in CRF, Errata (Cards) of the document,
I agree that it is not an errata.

P.S. For some reasons it does not work on one click, use Open in new tab from context menu.
I got the file. I only quickly checked but that document seems mostly correct/updated. But it renamed (misnamed) the original headers and it's missing the delayed (monday) rulings for tournaments.

CRF Table of Contents
  • Introduction
  • Turn Sequence Rulings
  • Rulings by Term
  • Tournament Rulings
  • Card Errata and Rulings
  • Complete Errata Listing
  • Delayed Rulings for tournament play.
The entries in the Card Errata and Rulings section (like the one for Long Dark Reach) are all clarifications unless they state "errata." Just because the clarification on Long Dark Reach uses the word "played" does not mean that the creature is actually played.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:40 pm Just because the clarification on Long Dark Reach uses the word "played" does not mean that the creature is actually played.
Yes.
I do not believe blindly in each word of ICE, just because it came from ICE. And I do not encourage anyone to do so.

I encourage to think about consistency and about consequences.
If a creature is only revealed, not played then it is immune to Stealth, Redy to His Will, Forewarned is Forearmed.

Maybe it is better to accept a convention that unless specifically stipulated a creature that attacks is played.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:13 pm I encourage to think about consistency and about consequences.
If a creature is only revealed, not played then it is immune to Stealth, Redy to His Will, Forewarned is Forearmed.

Maybe it is better to accept a convention that unless specifically stipulated a creature that attacks is played.
You're misunderstanding the difference between being "played" and being "in play." You have to just read the words of the card because they work differently. A creature that is in the play area is in play. Sometimes attack are created by cards that are specifically out of play as we already discussed (e.g., Shelob, Traitor, In Great Wrath, etc.)

Stealth states "No creature hazards may be played on his company this turn." Stealth only works against creature hazards that would be played, not creatures that are in play without being played.

Ready to His Will States "Playable on an Orc, Troll, Giant, Slayer, or Man hazard creature." Nothing here requires the creature to have actually been played (i.e., from hand according to the normal rules). The creature just needs to be in play. A creature revealed by Long Dark Reach is a legitimate target for Ready to His Will and its attacks can be reduced by Forewarned is Forearmed.

---------

Many cards are in play without ever being played. For example, Enruned Shield can be "in play" without ever being played since it may have been revealed by Lucky Search and then taken control of by a character. Once the Shield is controlled by the character, it is "in play" -- it's in the player's Play Area.

Or in recent discussions, playing Memories of Old Torture will cause an ally to be "in play" without ever having been played.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:23 pm Many cards are in play without ever being played. For example, Enruned Shield can be "in play" without ever being played since it may have been revealed by Lucky Search and then taken control of by a character. Once the Shield is controlled by the character, it is "in play" -- it's in the player's Play Area.

Or in recent discussions, playing Memories of Old Torture will cause an ally to be "in play" without ever having been played.
This is what I had in mind when I said about redefining the term "playing a card".

A creature must have be in play before it become ally.
Non-sage Dúnadan must have be in play before sage Dúnadan appeared in play in result of Gift of Comprehension.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:36 pm This is what I had in mind when I said about redefining the term "playing a card".
But there's no reason to do that...
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Konrad Klar
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I forgot about current state of the rule. :oops:

Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.

This greatly simplifies things. If something comes into play not from hand it is no played.
Ha, ha!

As bonus it effectively cuts access to Location Deck. By definition nothing may be played from the source (because Location Deck is not a hand).
And if the game cannot be proceeded, there are no further problems in the game.
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CDavis7M
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:58 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:12 pm assumes that the creature attacking according to Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Out of the Black Sky is played.
No, the creatures attacking according to Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Out of the Black Sky are NOT "played" because "play" means from your hand according to the rules (potentially augmented by other effects).
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Konrad Klar
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Yea...
The notions about "playing a card" and about creatures attacking in result of event are well connected. To not to say "consistent".

Oh, wait...
Dark Minions: Out of the Black Sky
R3 Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable if Doors of Night is in play on a Nazgûl permanent-event that could immediately attack as if it were in your hand as a creature. The Nazgûl immediately attacks as a creature from its permanent-event state (not counting against the hazard limit) and chooses defending characters. If the Nazgûl is defeated, place this card in opponent's Marshaling point pile and remove the Nazgûl from play. Otherwise, discard this card. This can be used on an opponent's Nazgûl permanent-event as well as on your own.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:51 pm The creature is not playable if it has not been keyed because it cannot be played without being keyed.
This is fabricated. Relevant quote:
MELE wrote:You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met: {list of conditions} ... lf a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these criterion that the attack is "keyed to."
In short: for the creature to be playable it must satisfy "one of the following criterion". A condition is only chosen as the "key" when the creature is actually played.

One could also argue that the ability to be able to choose one of the criteria is also a condition for determining whether the creature is playable... if for some reason a player could have their ability to make choices called into question.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:32 pm There is no suggestion in the rules that determining whether a card is "playable" is less restrictive than actually playing the card.
This is just basic English. Playable: able to be played. Played: actually played. Amazing insight here, I know.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:29 am
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:51 pm The creature is not playable if it has not been keyed because it cannot be played without being keyed.
This is fabricated. Relevant quote:
MELE wrote:You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met: {list of conditions} ... lf a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these criterion that the attack is "keyed to."
In short: for the creature to be playable it must satisfy "one of the following criterion". A condition is only chosen as the "key" when the creature is actually played.

One could also argue that the ability to be able to choose one of the criteria is also a condition for determining whether the creature is playable... if for some reason a player could have their ability to make choices called into question.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:32 pm There is no suggestion in the rules that determining whether a card is "playable" is less restrictive than actually playing the card.
This is just basic English. Playable: able to be played. Played: actually played. Amazing insight here, I know.
Read the rules again. An attack from a creature cannot occur without a condition being keyed and met ("such an attack can only occur if"). The rule on attacks doesn't care whether the creature is played or not. Keying is required for an attack to be declared.

You can't know whether the creature is "playable" unless it has been keyed, same as determining playability for every other creature attack.

Keying is a fundamental feature of attacks in this game. There's no reason that it would somehow not be used here.
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Konrad Klar
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I think that text of particular card may supersede the general rules.
For instance it may set some conditions under which a creature may be played that do not fit in general rules.

As I understand the moot question is whether a playing the creature under such conditions can be considered as a keying (to the conditions) or not.
What practical impact on game would have a that or another resolution of the question?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:08 pm I think that text of particular card may supersede the general rules.
For instance it may set some conditions under which a creature may be played that do not fit in general rules.
This is not the case here. Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall do not create conditions under which a creature may be played. They have an attack creating action that is dependent on the normal creature playability conditions.
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Konrad Klar
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Hmm...
It may be the case here. E.g. if the creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall is an Undead and a company moves according to Paths of the Dead.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:36 pm Hmm...
It may be the case here. E.g. if the creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall is an Undead and a company moves according to Paths of the Dead.
Paths of the Dead has an effect allowing any undead to be played on the company. This effect creates an additional criteria for keying such creatures. An undead with BoCH/FSF may be keyed to Paths of the Dead's effect.
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Konrad Klar
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:36 pm Hmm...
It may be the case here. E.g. if the creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall is an Undead and a company moves according to Paths of the Dead.
I should say:

It may be the case here. E.g. if the creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home is an Undead and a company moves according to Paths of the Dead.

Obviously Foes Shall Fall is out of question (unless the creature is Undead.Drake, or Undead.Dragon, or Undead.Dragon.Drake ... unlikely :) ).
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