Council of Elrond

The Lidless Eye: Come by Night Upon Them
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Resource: Short-event

Playable on a Border-hold . -1 to the prowess of all automatic-attacks at the site (-2 if Doors of Night is in play). The first item played at the site does not tap the site. "...they had planned with the goblins' help to come by night upon some of the villages..."-Hob

Proposed erratum:

Playable on a Border-hold . -1 to the prowess of all automatic-attacks at the site (-2 if Doors of Night is in play) until end of turn. The first item played at the site this turn does not tap the site. "...they had planned with the goblins' help to come by night upon some of the villages..."-Hob

Changes in bold.

Rationale:
I do not thing that effects of this card should be persistent.

Hmm... The time periods stated by Come By Night Upon them are Step 2 and Step 3 of the Site Phase. Why should the effects last longer than periods already given by the card text?

The card is playable when facing the automatic-attack at Step 2. The prowess of the attack(s) is reduced. Then at Step 3 an item is played and the site does not tap. There is nothing more for the card effect to do beyond Step 3 of the Site Phase. What need is there to last beyond the site phase? I like the card as it is.

I thought short-events last until the end of the turn if not specified?
Yes, the effect should not last longer than present turn.

On a side note; can Fast Asleep be played before the site phase and target an automatic-attack company is at or moving too?
The site is revealed right? Legal target? Let me such the forum for this hero event.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:57 pm Hmm... The time periods stated by Come By Night Upon them are Step 2 and Step 3 of the Site Phase. Why should the effects last longer than periods already given by the card text?

You see some periods.
Tidings of Bold Spies is period? First item played at site turn later is period?

dirhaval wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:47 am I thought short-events last until the end of the turn if not specified?

So there are many short-events that needlessly state that their effects last until end of turn.

dirhaval wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:47 am On a side note; can Fast Asleep be played before the site phase and target an automatic-attack company is at or moving too?
The site is revealed right? Legal target? Let me such the forum for this hero event.

Yes. And Fast Asleep does not require facing the attack.

EDIT: "effect" > "effects"

dirhaval wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:47 am I thought short-events last until the end of the turn if not specified?

There is no such general rule. Sometimes the time period for an effect is directly specified in the card text. Sometimes a time period is implied based on what the card is affecting (a site-path only lasts until the company stops moving, an attack only lasts until it is resolved, an automatic-attack is only faced during Step 2 of the site phase, etc.)

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dirhaval wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:47 am On a side note; can Fast Asleep be played before the site phase and target an automatic-attack company is at or moving too?
The site is revealed right? Legal target? Let me such the forum for this hero event.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:59 am Yes. And Fast Asleep does not require facing the attack.

Oh? The rules I posted above specifically state that "a card is only playable if its effect applies to an existing situation, hazard, attack, etc." Fast asleep does not require an attack but it requires either an existing attack or an existing burglary attempt.

An automatic-attack that is not being faced is not an existing situation or attack. The rules recognize this in providing an exception for the hazard player to target the automatic-attack at the company's new site, even though there is no existing situation or attack, even though the attack may ultimately not be faced. The hazard player can only play hazards during the movement/hazard phase and so the exception makes sense. The resource player can hold the card until the situation/attack arises. So there is no need to give them an exception to the rule.

MECCG uses hand-filling card draw and does not provide some limited in-game currency to use when paying for cards or effects. Because of these designs there must be constraints on when and how cards can be played. Fast Asleep cannot be played preemptively during the movement/hazard phase. One cost of using Fast Asleep in terms of game design is holding the card in your hand until the site phase.

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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:59 am Tidings of Bold Spies is period? First item played at site turn later is period?

Tidings of Bold Spies is a short-event, not a time period. I'm not sure what your question is.

As for playing an item at the site, that only happens during Step 3 of the Site Phase, which is a time period of the game. Come by Night Upon Them's effect lasts for Step 2 (facing the automatic attack) and Step 3 (playing a resource at the site) of the site phase.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:13 pm An automatic-attack that is not being faced is not an existing situation or attack. The rules recognize this in providing an exception for the hazard player to target the automatic-attack at the company's new site, even though there is no existing situation or attack, even though the attack may ultimately not be faced.

What you call as "exception" is described in rules as "Note:".
The word "exception" would imply an existence of rule that generally forbids something from which some exception is made.

Arouse Denizens is not even played on AA. The card is played on site (according to text of MELE version). The AA to be modified is chosen as part of main effect of the card.

Come by Night Upon Them is played on . Target site does not must have any AA.

I'm sorry. Not "Note:" but "Clarification:"

The hazards be played in the movement/hazard phase, which is not in the site phase when the automatic attack is faced, but and they must work. Resources can be played in the site phase when the automatic attack is being faced. In other words:

Note: The cards work as they say. We didn't publish a bunch of useless cards.

Agreeable explanation of why Fast Asleep cannot be played without facing the automatic-attack.
Logic is the same as using Risky Blow during MOVE phase to target character when later facing the automatic-attack, if still in play.
Maybe that is why many global prowess boosting resources are long-events.

True? Fast Asleep affecting an automatic-attack if attack is faced via Tiding of Bold Spies?

So we all learn that if a new CCG is made, ensure designers video their game play and post it for all to see.

dirhaval wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pm Agreeable explanation of why Fast Asleep cannot be played without facing the automatic-attack.
Logic is the same as using Risky Blow during MOVE phase to target character when later facing the automatic-attack, if still in play.

From thematic perspective:

if defenders of some site (symbolized by AA) may be aroused and this state does not require a company's intervention,
why they (AA) may not be distracted, be less vigilant than usual, or just go to sleep without company's intervention?
The logic behind Risky Blow makes it impossible?

From thematic perspective - Forewarned is Forearmed symbolizes companies forearmed against some treats (hazards with multiple attacks, sites with multiple AAs). However technically, companies are not affected at all by the card.

Whatever the Come by Night Upon Them symbolizes, technically the card does not affect a company at all, does not require AA at target site [FW version of The White Towers with(out) Nature's Revenge and with Rebuild the Town is valid target for the card].

dirhaval wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pm Logic is the same as using Risky Blow during MOVE phase to target character when later facing the automatic-attack, if still in play.
Maybe that is why many global prowess boosting resources are long-events.

That's similar to my understand of the long-event phase. I think the bottom line is that requiring long-events to be played in the long-event phase solves potential timing issues. But I also think it is somewhat of a "cost" (holding the card in hand for the right moment) given that these effects were intended to be powerful. Whether they are powerful enough to warrant holding them until the long-event phase is another question.

dirhaval wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pm True? Fast Asleep affecting an automatic-attack if attack is faced via Tiding of Bold Spies?

The attack of Tidings of Bold Spies is not an automatic attack, but it is a duplicate of the automatic attack. I think this "duplication" alone is enough to show that the automatic-attack of the site itself is an "existing situation, hazard, attack, etc." because of the effect of Tidings. But especially given that Tidings specifically includes any modifications: targeted hazard modifications of course, but also resource modifications.