Ren Unleashed

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Konrad Klar
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The Lidless Eye: Ren Unleashed
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Resource: Short-event

Playable on Ren the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith). All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2. "We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire."-LotRI
I propose the following erratum:

Playable on Ren the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith). Each character at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2. This card creates actions separately declared and resolved for each character. "We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire."-LotRI

Changes in bold.

Related thread:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3067&p=25305


Rationale:
Declared corruption checks may be targeted by actions declared in response. Problem is that statement "All characters ... must make a corruption check ..." does not declare any individual cc. If along with Ren the Ringwraith there are at the same site Gandalf, Balin, Frodo, the actions "Gandalf makes cc-2", "Balin makes cc-2", "Frodo makes cc-2" are not declared. No one can tap in support, or use a resource that would modify particular cc.

Or... maybe possibility of tapping in support, or using a resource that would modify particular cc is unwanted here.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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I think I understand why you see an issue. So then do you also think that Red Unleased does not actually give -2 to these rolls since they have not been individually declared?
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Konrad Klar
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No.
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CDavis7M
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By the way, I agree that this is a non-targeted effect. But I don't see any issues. The dice rolls are still declared. Characters may still tap in support before the dice roll. It doesn't matter that the effect does not specifically target each individual character as it specifies that all characters will make checks. There are checks for all characters.

If resolution of a character being played happens after Ren Unleashed is declared, they will make a check but at that point it is too late to tap in support or play a new card anyway.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:44 pm By the way, I agree that this is a non-targeted effect. But I don't see any issues. The dice rolls are still declared.
Just wrong.
If Sun is in play and Doors of Night is declared, the action "discard Sun" is not declared. If no resource environment cards and effects will be in play at point when Doors of Night is resolved in chain of effects, nothing will be discarded, nor canceled. If Crown of Flowers will appear before resolution of Doors of Night, Crown of Flowers will be discarded.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:44 pm Characters may still tap in support before the dice roll. It doesn't matter that the effect does not specifically target each individual character as it specifies that all characters will make checks. There are checks for all characters.
Yea. Does not matter. Someone would gladly tap for masses*.

*) thanks for gradually creating Illustrated Holly Rules & Errata section.

EDIT: "mass" > "masses"
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:05 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:44 pm By the way, I agree that this is a non-targeted effect. But I don't see any issues. The dice rolls are still declared.
Just wrong.
If Sun is in play and Doors of Night is declared, the action "discard Sun" is not declared. If no resource environment cards and effects will be in play at point when Doors of Night is resolved in chain of effects, nothing will be discarded, nor canceled. If Crown of Flowers will appear before resolution of Doors of Night, Crown of Flowers will be discarded.
I agree and I read the argument about Gates (Doors) in the other thread.

The difference between Gates/Doors and Run Unleased is that "discard" in Gates/Doors is not a dice roll whereas "corruption check" is a corruption check dice roll and corruption check dice rolls always have targets even if the effect that created the dice roll is a non-targeted effect.

The effect of Ren Unleashed requires dice rolls by all character at the site. The characters at that site are the target of the corruption check dice roll even if the characters are not specifically targeted by the effect that caused the dice roll (All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check).

The site is known, the characters are known, the corruption checks are known. Actions can be taken to modify these rolls.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:45 pm The difference between Gates/Doors and Run Unleased is that "discard" in Gates/Doors is not a dice roll whereas "corruption check" is a corruption check dice roll and corruption check dice rolls always have targets even if the effect that created the dice roll is a non-targeted effect.
And similarity is "all".
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:45 pm The site is known, the characters are known, the corruption checks are known. Actions can be taken to modify these rolls.
Like in case Door of Night.
Affected objects are not know at declaration.

The card may be played organization phase and Ren the Ringwraith may be at [-me_dha-]; some other character may be played in response, or discarded, or eliminated (e.g. in result of failed cc from action declared in response).
Or even two or three Ren Unleashed may be declared in row.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:37 pm I think I understand why you see an issue. So then do you also think that Red Unleased does not actually give -2 to these rolls since they have not been individually declared?
An now I see another problem with "All" in text of this card.
It is possible both physically and technically (in term of rules) to discard, tap, untap some number of cards, all at one time.
Some number of characters can hypothetically make cc, all at one time. And then they will be immune to side effects of failing cc by one character (e.g. discarding the Fellowship) at time of performing of cc.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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