On Cards Overriding Rules

[Konrad Klar]

Ok. You may play Open to the Summons during site phase. If Open to the Summons would make at its resolution action "play character" (not possibility to use later) you would be able to play character at the same time, but not later (similarly resource enviroment events are discarded at resolution of Doors of Night but not later).

[Jambo]

Ok. You may play Open to the Summons during site phase. If Open to the Summons would make at its resolution action "play character" (not possibility to use later) you would be able to play character at the same time, but not later (similarly resource enviroment events are discarded at resolution of Doors of Night but not later).

So after its resolution - then what? Org. phase only? If so, why? If I play Khamul as my RW, upon its resolution can I play a RW follower in the same Org. phase?

Take Thrall of the Voice:

Thrall of the Voice
Permanent-event
Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company.

This card makes the clear distinction that the character to be played is "Instead of a normal character..."

Why isn't same text used for Khamul, The Witch-king or Open to the Summons?

Then there's Black Horse:

Black Horse Warrior Ally
Playable on a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven (does not tap the site). Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control. If each Ringwraith in a company has a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may freely move (using starter movement). You may include up to nine copies of this card in your play deck and sideboard combined. Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.

A question was asked: During my site phase I give The Witch King a Black Horse. May I now play another Ringwraith follower during the site phase (because the card text says Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's Company allows you to play one Ringwraith Follower) and give these Follower also a Black Horse ?

Digest 585 stated: "No, you may only play the followers during the org. phase."

Why again the distinction? One rule for short events, another for allies, permanent events or characters?

[Jambo]

(similarly resource enviroment events are discarded at resolution of Doors of Night but not later).

That's different, DoN makes the clear distinction that: "All resource environment events in play are immediately discarded..."

It then goes on to say that "...all resource environment card effects are cancelled." PResumably this effect continues regardless. So why should the effect of Open to the Summons and other cards mentioned not continue past their resolution? Why couldn't I play a character during the end of turn phase or on a subsequent site phase with Open to the Summons?

[Konrad Klar]

So after its resolution - then what? Org. phase only? If so, why? If I play Khamul as my RW, upon its resolution can I play a RW follower in the same Org. phase?

When you may opportunity to play character, so normally only in org. phase. You can play a RW follower after playing of Khamul. Its ability is not action performed at resolution (when Khamul comes into play).
Limit of one character per turn in org. phase is already exhaused after playing of Khamul.

Take Thrall of the Voice:

(...)

This card makes the clear distinction that the character to be played is "Instead of a normal character..."



Why isn't same text used for Khamul, The Witch-king or Open to the Summons?

"Instead of a normal character..." means type of character that would normally be played is superseded by text of card. Otherwise this card would allow only playing character with mind up to 6 and/or agent, but other normal restrictions would be still in force (i.e. no Orc, no Troll).

May I now play another Ringwraith follower during the site phase (because the card text says Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's Company allows you to play one Ringwraith Follower) and give these Follower also a Black Horse ?

"allows" is not action immediately taken at resolution of card. Likewise with Orders From Lugburz company is allowed to contain extra Troll leader, but this does not mean Troll leader may be immediately played when Orders From Lugburz is resolving.

Why couldn't I play a character during the end of turn phase or on a subsequent site phase with Open to the Summons?

For the same reasons for which card that make something playable at site does not allow to play something at any time.

On the contrary short-events does not make any possibility that may be used later unless it is stated on card (e.g. "this turn", "until end of turn", "during M/H phase").

P.S.

It then goes on to say that "...all resource environment card effects are cancelled." PResumably this effect continues regardless.

Oh no... Effects of resource enviroment events played after DoN would be canceled immediately then....

[Bandobras Took]

(Side note: the MELE rules only require an untapped site and the site phase for Gold Ring, Minor, Major, and Greater Items. It does not require the same for Special Items.)

This is here:

A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.

But then you go down to Items, and it says, "A special item states at what sites and under what conditions it is playable." Surely this overrides the general site phase requirement for items? Just like short events, being playable at any time, override any rules about bringing characters into play?

Mithril specifies the site phase; none of the others do.

"allows" is not action immediately taken at resolution of card. Likewise with Orders From Lugburz company is allowed to contain extra Troll leader, but this does not mean Troll leader may be immediately played when Orders From Lugburz is resolving.

Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower

A character may be brought into play

The only difference in these two phrases is spelling. They mean exactly the same thing for the purposes of character play. Chance Meeting overrides Home Site requirements and Black Horse overrides DI requirements.

This company may contain a Troll leader

And this one says nothing about character play, merely company composition.

For the same reasons for which card that make something playable at site does not allow to play something at any time.

But you've been arguing all along that A Chance Meeting, which makes a character playable at a Free Hold, Border Hold, or Ruins & Lairs, allows such a character to be played any time.

Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Umagaur that turn.

I can play these creatures outside the m/h phase? Would this be A Chance Meeting for a hazard strategy?

[Konrad Klar]

But then you go down to Items, and it says, "A special item states at what sites and under what conditions it is playable." Surely this overrides the general site phase requirement for items? Just like short events, being playable at any time, override any rules about bringing characters into play?

Mithril specifies the site phase; none of the others do.

Derived from the context. Whole part is:

Items

If a character is at an untapped site that indicates that a specific type of item card (gold ring, minor, major, or greater) is "playable," he may tap during the site phase to bring an item of that type into play. The item card is placed under the character's card. After an item is played at a site, the site card is tapped.

A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is "playable."

Special items must state at what sites and under which conditions are "playable", because unlike other items nowhere on site is written where it is playable. E.g. on Moria card is not written "Book of Mazarbool is playable".

I don't know why on Mithril is wriiten "during the site phase". I don't know why on King under the Mountain is written "and has no dragon automatic attacks."

Someone could think: otherwise site where Dragon At Home was defated would still have dragon automatic attack.

Maybe such remarks have some meaning not known to me. Personally I think this is redundant text, duplicating with general rules.
I cannot prove second nor first option.

Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Umagaur that turn.

Part "that turn" indicates effect that lasts after resolution of Umagaur. (I said before about such phrases, but you seem to omit it). So if A Chance Meeting would say "this turn character may be played at..." then situation would be similar - extra possiblity to use later that does not disable other requirements: correct phase, limit etc.
In case of Umagaur m/h phase, in case of ACM organization phase.
Text of ACM does not contain such phrase, so is more comparable to:

Fever of Unrest

A Dragon hazard creature can attack a company with four Wildernesses [w] in its site path. Alternatively, Leucaruth can attack a company with three Wildernesses [w] in her site path. Perpetually angry and always prowling, the Worm of Ire suffers a restlessness that drives her onward to the spore of her hated Dwarven enemies.-Kuduk Lore

or

Exhalation of Decay

Playable on an Undead hazard creature in your discard pile. If target Undead can attack, brig it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attacks prowess is modified by -1. ...wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light the illuminated nothing.-LotRIV

Dragon/Undead can attack at resolution of the Fever of Unrest/Exhalation of Decay, but not later.

Would this be close equivalent of A Chance Meeting for a hazard strategy. Difference is that hazard short-events are by default playable during M/H phase, resource short events in any phase of player turn.

[Bandobras Took]

Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum).

Can I play this during the End of Turn Phase to reduce the hazard limit?

[Jambo]

Ok. You may play Open to the Summons during site phase. If Open to the Summons would make at its resolution action "play character" (not possibility to use later) you would be able to play character at the same time, but not later (similarly resource enviroment events are discarded at resolution of Doors of Night but not later).

So after its resolution - then what? Org. phase only? If so, why? If I play Khamul as my RW, upon its resolution can I play a RW follower in the same Org. phase?

When you may opportunity to play character, so normally only in org. phase.

Is this a personal opinion or is this based on an official ruling on how the card works? Anyway, what you're saying here is that upon resolution of Open to the Summons, one could play a character immediately regardless of phase (assuming company is at a Darkhaven of course). And that once it's resolved one can then only play the character during the Org phase?

I know this card isn't commonly used as part of general play and that its primary use is during character pool, however, Mark's deck Faithless Stewards used agents played with Open to the Summons, so I'd be interested to know how that deck operated using this card's agent playability...

I would say that the ruling you're putting forward sounds complicated and unwieldly, even if it does prove to be correct in the end. Why is the effect of Open to the Summons only limited to resolution, or the Org phase? Can't the resource player simply decide when the use the effect of this permanent event. Or, if this is governed by the Org phase, why also not short events like ACM and WHCtK?

You can play a RW follower after playing of Khamul. Its ability is not action performed at resolution (when Khamul comes into play).
Limit of one character per turn in org. phase is already exhaused after playing of Khamul.

I know this has been discussed before, but I'll bring it up again here. Quoted from MELE under section 5. Characters & Companies:

If you have enough general influence or direct influence during a given turn, you may bring into play: one non-Ringwraith character at his home site or at any Darkhaven or your Ringwraith at his home site or Minas Morgul.

The section under Bringing Characters into Play also continues on this theme. No mention of RW followers other than the noting that exceptions are detailed later in the rulebook.

The text on the Witch-king avatar goes to lengths to clearly stipulate that the 2 RW followers he can have must be brought into play during separate Org phases. Why bother with such text if RW followers are governed by the same standard rules as for other characters??

"Instead of a normal character..." means type of character that would normally be played is superseded by text of card. Otherwise this card would allow only playing character with mind up to 6 and/or agent, but other normal restrictions would be still in force (i.e. no Orc, no Troll).

Couldn't the same conclusion be derived even without the text "Instead of a normal character..."? Can you define "normal character" for me? In the literal sense this text could just be there to ensure that one didn't play a normal character in addition to another character using Thrall of the Voice in the same Org phase. The whole text of Thrall of Voice already makes it obvious that the character to be played isn't normal (i.e. up to 6 mind and minion agent clearly stated in parenthesis).

Likewise with Orders From Lugburz company is allowed to contain extra Troll leader, but this does not mean Troll leader may be immediately played when Orders From Lugburz is resolving.

Agreed but I don't recall that being a contentious issue. Orders From Lugburz doesn't make any reference to actually playing the troll, it just allows the event to occur.

Why couldn't I play a character during the end of turn phase or on a subsequent site phase with Open to the Summons?

For the same reasons for which card that make something playable at site does not allow to play something at any time.

On the contrary short-events does not make any possibility that may be used later unless it is stated on card (e.g. "this turn", "until end of turn", "during M/H phase").

Yes, but this goes back to the point with ACM and WHCtK allowing characters to be played outside of the Org phase. Unless their text explicitly overrides them, aren't short events still governed by the same constraints of the rules? If not, please show me the rule/annotation/clarification that states otherwise for short events.

[Bandobras Took]

Special items must state at what sites and under which conditions are "playable", because unlike other items nowhere on site is written where it is playable. E.g. on Moria card is not written "Book of Mazarbool is playable".

But the time of play is one of those conditions. Since something like twice-baked cakes says playable at a Border-Hold with no reference to a site phase, the Chance Meeting logic should allow it to be played during any phase.

Which is why asked about playing Many Turns and Doublings to lower the HL in the end-of-turn phase.

I don't think one can.

This is because on p. 45 of the MELE rulebook, it says:

During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.

The hazard limit only applies during the movement/hazard phase. Since it does not apply during the end of turn phase, Many Turns may not be played. It will have no effect, and cards cannot be played for no effect.

You cannot argue that the play of Chance Meeting is what makes character play possible when the very question is whether the play of Chance Meeting is legal.

There is no opportunity to play Many Turns during the end of turn phase because the hazard limit does not exist and the card text does not override this.

There is no opportunity to play Chance Meeting outside the Organization Phase because the ability to play characters does not exist and the card text does not override this.

Helm of Her Secrecy, on the other hand is playable because it specifies alternate conditions under which it is playable.

Chance Meeting gives no such specific conditions, therefore the ability to bring a character into play must be available before Chance Meeting can be played.

Likewise, as you have said, Special Items are still supposed to abide by the rules for playing items even though "A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is playable."

It doesn't work both ways. If Chance Meeting does not specify alternate conditions for the play of characters, then the default conditions exist. In this case, it is necessary that it be the organization phase for a character to be playable. If a character is not playable, Chance Meeting may not be played. If a character is playable, then they may be brought into play under direct influence at any Free-Hold, Border-Hold, etc.

[Konrad Klar]

Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum).

Can I play this during the End of Turn Phase to reduce the hazard limit?

This card (in second use) has target - hazard limit - that does not exist in End of Turn Phase, so no. Such play is not even playing for no effect, this is playing without active condition.

Anyway, what you're saying here is that upon resolution of Open to the Summons, one could play a character immediately regardless of phase (assuming company is at a Darkhaven of course). And that once it's resolved one can then only play the character during the Org phase?

No. "Once it's resolved one can then only play the character during the Org phase" is correct.

I wrote:

If Open to the Summons would make at its resolution action "play character" (not possibility to use later) you would be able to play character at the same time, but not later

Please read carefully.

I would say that the ruling you're putting forward sounds complicated and unwieldly, even if it does prove to be correct in the end.

Maybe. It is not easy to intersect through someone's system of understanding rules and mechanic of play, especially if some part of text are not absoletely visibly clearcut. I don't want to put pressure on anyone. I make some analogies, comparing cards that allows playing character to similar cards that allow play item, to "playable", and "may be played". The analogies are not convicable, so it must last long.

My "ruling" is simple.

1. If card makes at its resolution action such as "play character" or "you may play character" then this action takes place immediately (i.e. when card is resolved in its chain of effect), under condition specified on the card. If card is not restricted to any phase by its text, may be played in any phase.

2. If card does not make such action, but gives possibility to use later, this possibility must be used in organization phase and all condition other than that superseded by card's text must be meet.

Short-event - A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: "until the end of the turn").

It is why ACM and WHCtK does not fall into second category. Effect is implemented, card discarded and no effects that last for a specific period.

Why bother with such text if RW followers are governed by the same standard rules as for other characters??

Why Weigh All Things to a Nicety says: "Bring one resource or character (including your Ringwraith)"? "Character" is not sufficient? "(including your Ringwraith)" makes any changes?

I don't know.
This kind of redundancy (additional text that does not change anything) always makes such questions.

Can you define "normal character" for me?

Allowed by general rules.

Orders From Lugburz doesn't make any reference to actually playing the troll, it just allows the event to occur.

Agreed.

Yes, but this goes back to the point with ACM and WHCtK allowing characters to be played outside of the Org phase. Unless their text explicitly overrides them, aren't short events still governed by the same constraints of the rules? If not, please show me the rule/annotation/clarification that states otherwise for short events.

Clarification: Hazard short-events and permanent-events can be played only during an opponent's movement/hazard phase. Resource short-events and permanent-events can be played at any time during your turn as limited by specific card text.

But the time of play is one of those conditions. Since something like twice-baked cakes says playable at a Border-Hold with no reference to a site phase, the Chance Meeting logic should allow it to be played during any phase.

To be strict...
Items (factions, allies) are playable at given site all time, withever site is in play or not, however may be played in site phase. "May be played" and "playable" are different terms.

Bilbo is character, Twice-Baked Cakes is item, A Chance Meeting is not character, is short-event.

Which is why asked about playing Many Turns and Doublings to lower the HL in the end-of-turn phase.

My answer is at the top of post.

[Bandobras Took]

Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum).

Can I play this during the End of Turn Phase to reduce the hazard limit?

This card (in second use) has target - hazard limit - that does not exist in End of Turn Phase, so no. Such play is not even playing for no effect, this is playing without active condition.

An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.

We're begging the question here: in what way is the capacity to play characters in the first place not an active condition of bringing them into play with DI at any Free-Hold, Border-Hold, etc.?

[Konrad Klar]

Main effect of the card is not active condition of the card. Otherwise you could not play Bounty of The Hoard at Framsburg to play major item. Framsburg does not provides such capacity. Such capacity is provided by Bounty of The Hoard. Vicious circle.

[Bandobras Took]

Main effect of the card is not active condition of the card. Otherwise you could not play Bounty of The Hoard at Framsburg to play major item. Framsburg does not provides such capacity. Such capacity is provided by Bounty of The Hoard. Vicious circle.

Vicious circle, indeed. You seem to be interpreting "A character may be brought into play under DI at any free-hold, etc." as simply the ability to play characters. But the main effect of the card is to override the home site rules for character play, not to be a means of character play unto itself. In order to play a card that affects where characters may be brought into play, shouldn't characters be able to be brought into play first?

[Konrad Klar]

Short-event - A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: "until the end of the turn").

And probably I have nothing else to add. Difference between us are fundamental, they concern thing such as how short-events works in general.
In my opinion if short-event makes some action, this action may/must be taken immediately under condition specified on card. Short-events need not say they may be played outside some phase. It is sufficient if they not say "playable only in xyz phase".

[Bandobras Took]

Short-event - A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: "until the end of the turn").

And probably I have nothing else to add. Difference between us are fundamental, they concern thing such as how short-events works in general.
In my opinion if short-event makes some action, this action may/must be taken immediately under condition specified on card.

Actually, I think our difference is in what we understand the actual action of Chance Meeting to be. Just as we had a difference in understanding the permissions granted by Orders of Lugburz.

Perhaps the practical upshot of this whole long-winded thing is that the idea "cards do not violate the rules unless explicitly stated" is insufficient for making a ruling -- it seems that the interpretation of the card's text is more vital than the card's text itself.