Army and Paths of the Dead

[Thorsten the Traveller]

doing the errata files for gccg, questions come up.

Army of the Dead, CRF states it cannot be inlfuenced by opponent. But what if opponent manages to influence Aragorn away, and subsequenty wants to influence the Army of the Dead? seems legit to me. Would it not be better to state only Aragorn can influence it?

Paths of the Dead:

For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.

Of course we all know that you are not obliged to move to Vale of Erech, or in fact even be at Dunharrow to play this. Hence the Unofficial Errata Proposal for this card which has been accepted.
However, even as UEP-ed, one might still play Lost in Free-domains on the company, right? And Alone and Unadvised would still trigger for 4 regions. Because nothing whatsoever is mentioned about the site path, not that there isn't one, nor what it should be. So the hazard player may well argue: "may move from Dunharrow to Vale of Erech", ok, that's Rohan, Anorien, Lebennin and Lamedon then...
has this been ruled/clarified on?

[marcos]

its special movement, it doesn't include regions. Like great road, farmer maggot or eagle mount, they are special movement as well and doesn't include regions.

[Bandobras Took]

By the rules, no, it doesn't matter whose side Aragorn eventually ends up on.

Thematically, while Aragorn's working for Gandalf, he makes an agreement with the Army of the Dead and tells them what to do. If, after five months, he decides to work for Pallando, he's not going to alter the terms of the agreement with the Dead; he's too honorable for that sort of thing.

Or at least that's one way of looking at it.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

@Marcos. Could you point out where special movement is defined, and where it is mentioned that this applies to Paths of the Dead?
CRF search yielded nothing on either. I know the common knowledge, but it is good to get things clear sometimes (hence I defined it in the DC General rules).

according to the URD:

If using a special movement card that creates its own site path, hazard creatures may be still keyed to the new site, the region of origin, or the new region (unless otherwise noted by the card), as these are different keyability permissions than region type. (CoE 13)

Still PotD mentions nothing about a site path, and also URD does not list Paths as special movement. So it is rather implied, all.

@Bando. Funny way of looking at it, but if Aragorn decides it's best to serve another Wizard, I suppose he'd also think it best if the Army of the Dead should do so, seeing as they strictly follow him (standard Kant's first imperative). Besides, there's no honour or contracts in war, just think Aragorn is the accountmanager, and Army the account

With legit I obviously meant thematical and gametechnical legitimacy. What would really change if instead of the erratum/clarification "cannot be influenced" they had stated "can only be influenced by Aragorn"? Would it make a difference? Only sofar as Aragorn would not have to walk through the Paths of the Dead again to influence the faction away, I suppose.

[marcos]

@Marcos. Could you point out where special movement is defined, and where it is mentioned that this applies to Paths of the Dead?
CRF search yielded nothing on either. I know the common knowledge, but it is good to get things clear sometimes (hence I defined it in the DC General rules).

It is pointed out in the PotD card. Its text overrides normal movement rules.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Why? PotD (see first post) doesn't mention the words "special movement", nor anything about the supposed or altered site path. It only mentions that opponent can just play undead creatures.

[marcos]

There is no need to mention the words "special movement" on its text. Does alatar, iron road, great road, farmer maggot, bill the pony, etc mention such words?

The fact that the card mentions that you can move from one site to the other and skip which kind of "normal" movement you have to use is enough to make it "special".

By your example, it would be impossible to reach vale of erech if no way forward is in play, but still it is possible because potd allows it by its own text.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Still you're simply assuming special movement by default (as non-starter/region/underdeeps movement). Cannot be either of these? well then it must be special.
But your NWF example is reasoning the other way around, cause that means if nothing hampers the movement from Dunharrow to Vale of Erech, it might very well not be special movement? The card should say special movement, or it must be ruled, imo. This is what I'm trying to establish for dc rules. nb. at the time of metw there was no way to reduce the max. movement of a company, so at the time it was not considered special movement?

Special movement as non-normal movement is not established in the rules afaik.
It is in URD, but that is still not clear on the hazards that can be played or affect the company (e.g. it states creatures can be played keyed to first/last region, but so can hazards that affect those regions? Can I play lost in Borderlands on a company moving with PotD? would a non-creature attack such in DC world Grima Wormtongue affect the company?)

nb. Farmer/Alatar are more clear cut but different cases, as those are not even movements in terms of m/h phases, no cards are drawn based on those movements, no limit established etc.

Using special movement as a basket category for anything out of the ordinary is trickier than you think.

[marcos]

at the time of metw there was no way to reduce the max. movement of a company, so at the time it was not considered special movement?

why wouldn't it be special movement? Great road, alatar and bill the pony are as old as paths of the dead and they are considered... well, lets not call it special (because it is not a game term per se, yet) but as non-starter/region/underdeeps movement

It is in URD, but that is still not clear on the hazards that can be played or affect the company (e.g. it states creatures can be played keyed to first/last region, but so can hazards that affect those regions? Can I play lost in Borderlands on a company moving with PotD? would a non-creature attack such in DC world Grima Wormtongue affect the company?)

Afaik, that only applies to basic movement and harad-like cards, but if we assume that the Diggest entry about Harad/Forod/ Belegaer/ Rhun, also applies for the rest of "special" movement cards like paths or eagle-mounts, then yes:

8. I've never used the hybrid movement cards Forod or Harad before. The card texts state that the site path is www. By applying the "if it ain't there, it ain't there" credo, can I assume that this means hazard creatures are not keyable to the destination site?
*** Hazard creatures are still keyable to the destination site as well as the region name of origin and destination.

nb. Farmer/Alatar are more clear cut but different cases, as those are not even movements in terms of m/h phases, no cards are drawn based on those movements, no limit established etc.

Ok, then use eagle-mounts as example. You can fly from anduin vales to wherever you want, but do you also pass through all of those regions? do you do ccs if Alone And Stupid is in play? Are you limited to 4 regions? what if NWF is in play?

Using special movement as a basket category for anything out of the ordinary is trickier than you think.

I don't see why it should be tricky. This movement cards says what you can do and what you can't do, but i agree as you say its not established in the rules and it should be ruled, so it has already been brought to the NetRep.

[marcos]

It is in URD, but that is still not clear on the hazards that can be played or affect the company (e.g. it states creatures can be played keyed to first/last region, but so can hazards that affect those regions? Can I play lost in Borderlands on a company moving with PotD? would a non-creature attack such in DC world Grima Wormtongue affect the company?)

Afaik, that only applies to basic movement and harad-like cards, but if we assume that the Diggest entry about Harad/Forod/ Belegaer/ Rhun, also applies for the rest of "special" movement cards like paths or eagle-mounts, then yes:

8. I've never used the hybrid movement cards Forod or Harad before. The card texts state that the site path is www. By applying the "if it ain't there, it ain't there" credo, can I assume that this means hazard creatures are not keyable to the destination site?
*** Hazard creatures are still keyable to the destination site as well as the region name of origin and destination.

Re-considering this a little bit, i found the MELE rule about keying creatures. I think you should be able to key them to the region by name but not by type. You could play Lost in Borderlands, but it would have no effect because there is no site path on special movement like PotD or Eagle-mounts, therefore there are no region symbols to key to:

Creature Cards
You may use a creature card to directly attack one of your opponent's companies. Such an attack can occur only if one of the following criterion is met:
· The company is at a specific site at which the creature's card text says it can be played.
· The company's site of origin or new site is in a region where the creature's card text says it can be played.
· One of the site symbols on the creature's card matches the site that the company moved to (i.e., the new site) or stayed at (i.e., if the company did not move).
· At least one of the region symbols on the creature's card matches one of the region types the company moved through this turn (see below). If the creature's card has two region symbols of the same type (i.e., a deep Wilderness creature), then the company must have moved through at least two regions of that same type.

If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these conditions that the attack is "keyed to." The effects of certain cards are based upon the region or site type that a creature is keyed to.
The region types that a company moves through during a given turn are determined by the following criteria:
· If a company did not play a new site card, it did not move through any regions-so, no creature may be played based solely on region conditions.
· If the company was at a Darkhaven site and has played a new non-Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the new site card's site path.
· If the company was at a Darkhaven site and has played a new Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the new Darkhaven site card's "Site Path from" the old Darkhaven site (i.e., the site path from the site of origin Darkhaven).
· If the company was at a non-Darkhaven site and has played a new Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the site of origin's site path (i.e., the site path on the site that the company left).
· Standard Rules: If the company used region movement, the region types of the site path are indicated by the region cards or an appropriate map (i.e., each region card has a region type).
...
Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that a creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.
For example, if a character with a Shadow-cloak faces a strike from a creature that has been played keyed to Shadow-land, he can tap the Shadow-cloak to cancel the strike. However, if such a strike is keyed to Border-land, he cannot use his cloak against it.

Note: A creature played keyed to a specific region by name is not keyed to the specific region's type. For example, if Thranduil's Folk is played keyed to the Grey Mountain Narrows (a Shadow-land region), a target character with a Shadow-cloak can not use it to cancel a strike - the attack is keyed to the region by name, not by type.

This rule doesn't mention anything about non-creatures hazards. So as long as the region (or the region's symbol) isn't in the company's site phase, i don't think you could key stuff there.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

This movement cards says what you can do and what you can't do

But that's exactly the point, they don't, not conclusively enough at least. PotD does not mention whether you have a site path or not, you just assumed it.
But in the case of Great Road, Alatar, Bill, Farmer, we assume that since there is no real movement, rather replacing the site cards (and outside m/h phase most of the time), there is no issue about calling it special movement, if indeed it is called that.

But Eagle-mounts flying from Eyrie to Minas Tirith, well good question, I got no clue what Lure of Nature or Lost in Free-domains does. If a NetRep has ruled it, I'd like to see it (call me lazy, it must have been asked before, I can't not be). It's all nice to argue that "it must be instant movement cause you could go anywhere so otherwise we'd be in a rules fit", but that's a rather weak line of reasoning. So a ruling is best, and a definition of special movement and what it entails would be even better.

nb. the real reason I want to know this, is because in dc rules some characters/allies can use Flying movement, like Winged-change Master, but is that special movement, or rather, as the card itself says: region movement with no maximum and no site path. At least that card is clear. Yet it still does not mention "special movement"

[Bandobras Took]

Region movement is not used with Paths of the Dead.

Paths of the Dead can be played using the Starter Rules from ME:TW, where region movement is impossible.

Paths of the Dead is not Starter movement, as you are moving neither to or from a haven.

Since it is not region movement and not starter movement, and under-deeps movement did not exist when the card was issued, it is special movement. Special movement is a catch-all term for cards whose movement effects do not fall under the broad categories of starter, region, or under-deeps movement.

[miguel]

Re: Paths of the Dead

Paths of the Dead:
It doesnt actually say the company has no site path, so I assume they
still move through Rohan (and Lamedon for the usual play), and are
therefore vulnerable to Lost in Borderlands and cards like Siege
(playable at Vale of Erech, a border-hold). Is this right?

***  Correct.

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Re: Influencing Army of the Dead

I actually believe playing AotD includes no influence attempt at all. Aragorn simply gets to play it when the conditions are met, and that's why it can't be influenced by an opponent either. I will discuss this with the Team for an official ruling.

[marcos]

Region movement is not used with Paths of the Dead.

Paths of the Dead can be played using the Starter Rules from ME:TW, where region movement is impossible.

Paths of the Dead is not Starter movement, as you are moving neither to or from a haven.

Since it is not region movement and not starter movement, and under-deeps movement did not exist when the card was issued, it is special movement. Special movement is a catch-all term for cards whose movement effects do not fall under the broad categories of starter, region, or under-deeps movement.

thanks for clarifying what i was trying to tell

@Mikko: I disagree with that ruling, i don't think the company actually moves through rohan's and lamedon's symbol because of the reasons mentioned above, it is not region movement, so the company has no site path other than region by name (rohan and lamedon) and site (vale of erech, ) where they are moving to. Lost in borderlands could be played but without effect. On the other hand, Siege is completely legal, because it is played on the site.

[miguel]

Agree or not, it is the official ruling.

The ruling occurred before my time, but if I'd have to speculate, Chad probably saw Paths of the Dead working similarly to cards like Ash Mountains (treat regions X and Y as adjacent). The card text of PotD certainly leaves some room for interpretation.