maker's map and secrets of their forgering

[coro]

I'm sure that having target of action is not tha same as having target that is able to perform action.

Example is Tom Bombadil and Marvels Told. Sage must make cc. However Tom Bombadil cannot make cc. Token of Goodwill and Radagast's Black Bird. Diplomat must make cc but is unable to do cc.

It have sense to me...

Maybe text of Secrets of Their Forging was written by ICE without care and conditions "untapped sage, untapped site" should be printed here (because mechanics of this card is very similar to e.g. Far-sight or All Thought Bent upon It), however ICE never decided to make appropriate errata.

I agree with you, something similar as it happened in lots of cards...

[Bandobras Took]

You are right. Maybe text of Secrets of Their Forging was written by ICE without care and conditions "untapped sage, untapped site" should be printed here (because mechanics of this card is very similar to e.g. Far-sight or All Thought Bent upon It), however ICE never decided to make appropriate errata.

Sage only during the site phase at an untapped site where "Information" is playable. Tap the sage and the site to search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent. This item is placed in your hand and the play deck is reshuffled. The sage makes a corruption check.

In this case, not only is an untapped site specified, but tapping the sage and the site is clearly required for the effect (tap sage and the site to search through the deck).

Sage only. Playable during the site phase on an untapped sage at a site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site. Search your play deck and choose a item you must reveal to your opponent. Place the item in your hand and reshuffle your play deck. The sage makes a corruption check.

In this case, an untapped site is not specified, and tapping the sage and the site occurs separately from searching for the item -- it is not done in order to initiate the search effect.

As with Muster/Threats and A Friend Or Three/Join With That Power, the minion version ends up being quite a bit different than the hero version.

[Konrad Klar]

I realize now, that my private definition of tapping/discarding as active condition must be refined to be unambiguous and complementary. Personally I don't believe that something must be untapped both on declaration and resolution and at the same time must be tapped at declaration and be in tapped state at resolution.

[Bandobras Took]

It might be useful to distinguish between conditions for playing a card and conditions for initiating an effect of the card.

Far Sight, in order to be played, needs a sage and an untapped site. Once it resolves, there is an effect which can be initiated by tapping the sage and the site.

There is also an effect which happens either way (sage makes a corruption check).

All Thought Bent On It, on the other hand, has as its conditions for play an untapped sage and a site where information is playable (quite different from the Hero version, which requires an untapped site). It then has three separate effects:

1) Tap the sage and the site;
2) Search for an Item; and
3) Corruption check.

None of these effects has any active conditions attached to them, so I don't think there's any problem with things needing to be tapped and untapped at the same time.

As a side note, it's indisputable that tapping a card is not always an active condition:

Tap this card if the company plays a Palantír; this card never untaps.

Nobody in their right mind can argue that tapping Fate of the Ithil Stone constitutes an active condition. Is is an effect generated by playing a Palantir.

Therefore tapping a resource or character is not always an active condition.

Maker's Map requires an untapped Ranger and site as active conditions for its play. I don't think that anybody can reasonably say that tapping the Ranger and the site are active conditions for the +2 to movement rolls through the Under-Deeps. (Konrad: Were you referring to Maker's Map with your post? I think you're right in saying that Maker's Map cannot require as its active conditions that the site be both tapped and untapped upon resolution.)

Given that the rules say resource events do not require untapped sites unless specified and there are several resource events that specifically require untapped sites, I'd conclude that Secrets of Their Forging does not require an untapped site -- but the site will tap if not already tapped. I would further conclude that without a wording which clearly links tapping the sage and site to any of the effects generated by the card (Replace the Gold Ring Item or Discard the Gold Ring Item (and note that you can freely use this card simply to discard a Gold Ring)), tapping the sage is another effect of the card, not an active condition.

If anybody can put forth a good argument to the contrary, I'd be interested. But Maker's Map is a good case for saying that "tap whatever" is not an active condition unless clearly linked to a specific effect.

[Konrad Klar]

It might be useful to distinguish between conditions for playing a card and conditions for initiating an effect of the card.

Cardinally...
Discarding item for initiating effect of Token of Goodwill fits in this definition too, I think. (It obviously cannot be done at declaration, because it is dependent on result of previous action - cc).

(Konrad: Were you referring to Maker's Map with your post? I think you're right in saying that Maker's Map cannot require as its active conditions that the site be both tapped and untapped upon resolution.)

I was referring to any card that says that entity must be untapped and subsequently says that player must tap the same entity.

1) Tap the sage and the site;
2) Search for an Item; and
3) Corruption check.

None of these effects has any active conditions attached to them, so I don't think there's any problem with things needing to be tapped and untapped at the same time.

To be strict IMO tapping and cc have targets - the same site and sage that are required by phrase "Playable during the site phase on an untapped sage at a site where Information is playable.".

[Wacho]

Of course tapping is not always an active condition. However when a card mentions that you must tap something to do something, or it says playable on an untapped x and then tap x immediately afterwards that is generally an active condition. These types of active conditions are the price of an action. The Darkness Under Tree example is out of place. Tapping the character is not a cost or a restriction in that case it is the effect you are trying to accomplish. Here is the relevant portion of the CRF entry about active conditions:

An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.
Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

As an additional note, corruption checks are never active conditions. Only tapping things, discarding things, and the existence of conditions such as having a ranger in a company are active conditions. Not that these are always active conditions, but if they look like they are the cost of doing whatever it is you are trying to do then chances are it is an active condition.

[Bandobras Took]

Of course tapping is not always an active condition. However when a card mentions that you must tap something to do something,

No argument there. You must have one condition in play in order to do something.

or it says playable on an untapped x and then tap x immediately afterwards that is generally an active condition.

That one doesn't wash. Tapping anything is an effect unless it is specifically done in order to do something else. Otherwise, it doesn't serve as the price of an action because there is no action that requires it.

These types of active conditions are the price of an action. The Darkness Under Tree example is out of place. Tapping the character is not a cost or a restriction in that case it is the effect you are trying to accomplish.

And why is not the tapping of the site an action you are trying to accompish (tap Minion Dunharrow to enable Permanent Events that require a tapped site)? Darkness Under Tree is entirely relevant unless you can show me that a person never wants merely to tap a specific character or site.

Here is the relevant portion of the CRF entry about active conditions:

An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

Nobody's denying that an active condition that requires tapping something is valid.

However, a lot people are assuming that just because a card lists tapping a site or a character as one of its effects, this is to be considered an active condition. There is no justification for saying such.

The difference between:

Tap the sage and the site to search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent.

and

Tap the sage and the site.

is rather clear. Far Sight's main effect has an active condition of tapping the sage and the site. All Thought does not.

As an additional note, corruption checks are never active conditions.

Because? I have more to fear from a corruption check than from a character tapping. If we're interpreting "price of an action" to simply mean inconvenient things, corruption checks should rank on a greater level than an unattached "tap whatever." Especially if you're saying that the two phrases don't even have to be related to the action in question.

Only tapping things, discarding things, and the existence of conditions such as having a ranger in a company are active conditions. Not that these are always active conditions, but if they look like they are the cost of doing whatever it is you are trying to do then chances are it is an active condition.

That's just the point. A single sentence that says "tap the sage and the site" is not the cost of doing what I'm doing any more than the corruption check at the end is. A sentence that says "tap the sage and the site to do whatever" is the cost of performing whatever action follows.

What you're saying is equivalent to saying that Girdle of Radagast must be played on a Wizardhaven in a non-Wilderness because an active condition of the card is that the regions become a wilderness. (This is a cost of playing the card -- Cave-Drakes and Were-Worms will more easily be keyed against my company).

(Edited for grammar)

[Jambo]

The difference between:

Tap the sage and the site to search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent.

and

Tap the sage and the site.

is rather clear. Far Sight's main effect has an active condition of tapping the sage and the site. All Thought does not.

Is it really? Aren't cards supposed to resolve from start to finish in the order the text is written? If you can't 'tap the sage and site', can you even progress to the next part?

How does all this relate to The Worthy Hills (M) where tapping the site can never be achieved? If tapping of a site is an active condition for playing some of these events, does that make playing them at The Worthy Hills (M) impossible?

[coro]

Maybe taking the discussion out of the information cards could help us:

Ready to his will
Playable on an Orc, Troll, Giant, Slayer, or Man hazard creature with one strike for each of its attacks. All attacks of the creature are canceled. The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps. It has a mind of 1, 1 ally marshalling point, prowess equal to its normal prowess minus 7, and a body equal to 8. Place this card with the creature.

Here again the card text says that you have to tap a Character after the playing of this card. Then if we say that tapping this character is an active condition that would mean that we should understand: the control of any character (untapped) in the company.

The hunt
Playable on Alatar during the organization phase. Name a specific hazard creature card your opponent revealed to you through a mechanism of the game and discarded. Unless eliminated or prevented from being in play, your opponent then finds this particular card (reshuffling his play deck if searched). This creature immediately attacks Alatar as though he were a one-character company. Alatar cannot use or benefit from spells against the attack. If untapped, tap Alatar afterwards.

Here we find an identic wording in the beginning of the text. The active conditions are clear: Alatar during the organization phase but at the end of the card says you must tap alatar afterwards only if untapped.

Arrived at that point I think we can talk about the theory of the two writers , one good that took care of make the text clear and one bad that wrote without care.

It’s doubtless that secrets of their forging was written by the bad one and that now someone has to decide what the hell this guy was meaning when he wrote the text.

I will go a little further and say that may be the bad writer was the same that took the responsibility of sneakin's text that allows to play this card very different from stealth and make the cheezy trick of the faithless steward… Maybe we need and official clarification…

[Konrad Klar]

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

If active condition "Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration" have default prerequisite "that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared" why this prerequisite would be printed once again on some cards that require tapping as its active condition?

Is it such strange idea that something must be untapped as active condition for card and is tapped by first or next action of this card?

[Leon]

I see no reason why you would not be forced to do all actions on a card unless it specifies options. Call it active conditions or whatever you want, if a card says tap a character and the site you need an untapped character and untapped site before and will have a tapped site and tapped character afterwards. Any card that does not specify this clearly should be errataed in my opinion or be treated as similar cards.

So far problems for the site:
Anduril
All Thought Bent Upon It
To Satisfy the Questioner

for the character:
Ready to His Will
Dreams of Lore
Lucky Search
Reforging
Dragonlore
Elf-Path
Gift of Comprehension
Here There or Yonder

for the character and the site:
Secrets of Their Forging
When I Know Anything
When You Know More
Map to Mitrill
Ringlore

Here I stop the list because I think this is enough. Each of these states tapping of a character and/or tapping of a site somewhere but is not clear that this is needed for the effect of the card or a requirement up front. I do not think people will try to play them on tapped sites or characters if the text is not clear and if I ever see an opponent do so I will throw this argument at him till he changes his mind or we end the game.

We can have another discussion about the fact that ICE did not have exact rules and such, but I do not see the point in that.

[Konrad Klar]

I see no reason why you would not be forced to do all actions on a card unless it specifies options.

Play Call of Home on character that is under effect of Elf-Song. Returning it on hand is not option and it is known both on declaration and at resolution of Call of Home that returning cannot be done. Where is problem? Call of Home cannot be played in such situation, because target is not able to perform action? Or rather Call of Home may be played because its target exists?

And it is not discussed here that tapping is optional or mandatory. All agree, that tapping (as condition or as main effect) is mandatory.

[Bandobras Took]

The difference between:

Tap the sage and the site to search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent.

and

Tap the sage and the site.

is rather clear. Far Sight's main effect has an active condition of tapping the sage and the site. All Thought does not.

Is it really? Aren't cards supposed to resolve from start to finish in the order the text is written? If you can't 'tap the sage and site', can you even progress to the next part?

Playable on any attack against Adunaphel the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith) if she is the only character in her company. The number of strikes of the attack is reduced to one and the attack's body is modified by -2.

Can you play Adunaphel Unleashed against an attack with no body? What about an attack with only one strike? If a card has multiple effects and one of them will not apply, that doesn't invalidate the whole card.

To put the question of active conditions in real world terms: there is a difference between somebody who plays loud music in order to annoy you and someone who plays loud music.
In the game, there is a difference between tapping a site/character in order to do something and tapping a site/character.

How does all this relate to The Worthy Hills (M) where tapping the site can never be achieved? If tapping of a site is an active condition for playing some of these events, does that make playing them at The Worthy Hills (M) impossible?

The Worthy Hills has a CRF entry. The question becomes whether you're tapping the site to do something else or whether you're just tapping the site as one of many effects.

I see no reason why you would not be forced to do all actions on a card unless it specifies options. Call it active conditions or whatever you want, if a card says tap a character and the site you need an untapped character and untapped site before and will have a tapped site and tapped character afterwards.

I'll ask again: does Adunaphel Unleashed require an attack with more than one strike and a body attribute before it can be played?

There is absolutely no reason to say a card cannot be played just because you cannot apply some of its effects.

It's also worth noting that as far as I can tell, any agent influence hazard from Dark Minions requires an untapped agent for play. Cards which allow an agent to attack do not specify an untapped agent.

In the case of the influence cards (Good Sense Revolts, Twisted Tales, etc.) the phrase of the effect is "Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt." This is an active condition not of the card's play, but of the card's effect.

In the case of the attack cards, it is, "Tap the agent." Then it goes on with its next effect: "Agent may attack."

If a card must be able to tap in order to apply all of its effects, does this mean I cannot play any Palantir after I've tapped Fate of the Ithil Stone? You must tap the card if the company plays a Palantir; but you can't tap it if it's already tapped. Does this mean the company can play no Palantiri after the one which taps Fate of the Ithil Stone?

[Leon]

Please if you come up with examples to proof the contrary of what I am trying to tell have some card at least similar. And in this case with this game it is always possible to come up with a card that is also not worded completely. I think in general all text on a card should be used and followed.

As to the specific examples so far: I think that cards that Adunaphel Unleashed should state: The number of strikes of the attack is reduced to one and if the attack has body this is modified by -2. Similar for Black Arrow. Girdle of Radagast should specify that the regions become wilderness if they are no wilderness already.

Now do you have any example of a card which states tap a site or tap a character that should not be treated as if this is a requirement of the card or are you going to claim that the cards I listed before are playable on tapped sites and characters if it is not stated clearly otherwise. Because in that case it will concern at least 20 cards in the game, but probably way more that you can abuse.

[coro]

Leon:

I agree with you that it could be an abuse to play some of the cards you say understanding that tapping is not an active condition. Then, I would like to know why CRF says that maker's map (and the other information cards in which tapping the site is an active condition) can be played at worthy hills (M)... Maybe is that decision that puts us in that discussion.