Timing: Ren the Unclean and Ren Unleashed

[Konrad Klar]

Unique. Nazgûl (8th). May be played as a hazard creature (with one strike) or as a permanent event. As a creature, may also be played keyed to Dagorlad, Ithilien, Gorgoroth, and Horse Plains; and may also be played at sites in these regions. If played as a permanent-event, it will remain in play until tapped during the opponent's movement/hazard phase (tapping counts against the hazard limit). When tapped, Ren the Unclean becomes a short-event; each character in play must make a corruption check.

Playable on Ren the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith). All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2. We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.-LotRI

Environment. When Doors of Night is played, all resource environment cards in play are immediately discarded, and all resource environment effects are canceled. Cannot be duplicated. One by one white stars sprang forth as the sky faded.-LotRII

Underlines mine.

If you tap Ren, then you cannot play resources to aid your character's corruption
checks. Your characters may tap in support. The moving player makes corruption
checks first. Each player decides the order of the corruption checks for their
characters. See also Rulings by Term, Nazgûl.

Annotation 2: A corruption check or any dice-rolling action can be targeted in the
chain of effects during which it was declared.

I will start from Doors of Night. When DoN is declared it is not declared that resource X will be discarded, resource Y will be discarded... and so on.
All resource environment cards present at resolution of DoN will be discarded simultaneously. DoN does not target any of them, so if any of them will leave play between declaration and resolution, it will not fizzle the DoN. And if some will appear in play in meantime, it will be discarded.

Similarly Ren Unleashed refers to "All characters at the same site as Ren". Because playing Ren Unleashed does not cause declaration of cc for any specific character, there is no way to target (by tapping in support for cc, or by playing a resource") any cc caused by Ren Unleashed.

How tapping of Ren the Unclean does work?
In my opinion (and it does not contradict with CRF) it causes a serie of declarations of cc.
Consequences are:
- if any of target of such cc will leave play between declaration and resolution of tapping the Ren the Unclean, it will not fizzle a whole serie, only one declared cc,
- any cc may be targeted by actions declared in response to the serie of declarations (there is no possibility to declare anything between particular ccs),
- any character that will appear in play after declaration of tapping the Ren the Unclean will not perform cc.

[Bandobras Took]

There is a difference between declaring individual resources to be affected and declaring an entire class of objects to be affected.

Doors of Night does declare that all resources will be discarded, and that declaration does resolve.

Ren Unleashed declares that many corruption checks will happen. They will occur once Ren Unleashed resolves. Therefore, there is time to target any of those corruption checks before Ren Unleashed resolves.

Ditto Ren the Unclean.

The CRF entry regarding Ren the Unclean is pointing out the (to me) obvious fact that a person capable of tapping Ren the Unclean by definition can't play resources.

[Konrad Klar]

Ren Unleashed declares that many corruption checks will happen. They will occur once Ren Unleashed resolves. Therefore, there is time to target any of those corruption checks before Ren Unleashed resolves.

Scenario:
There is no resource environment cards in play.

Doors of Night is declared.
Gates of Morning is declared.

Gates of Morning resolves.
Doors of Night resolves.

In result Gates of Morning is discarded. Although at declaration of DoN there was no Gates of Morning in play. The action "discard Gates of Morning" could not be declared. Right?

How different is mechanics of:
"all resource environment cards in play are immediately discarded"
"All characters at the same site as Ren must make a corruption check modified by -2."
?

[Bandobras Took]

The action wasn't "Discard Gates of Morning."

The action was "Discard all resource environment cards in play."

That action absolutely can be declared, as it targets nothing.

[Konrad Klar]

The action wasn't "Discard Gates of Morning."

The action was "Discard all resource environment cards in play."

That action absolutely can be declared, as it targets nothing.

And this is my point.

Similarly the action "Asternak makes a cc -2" is not declared so it cannot be targeted by anything in response (tapping in support, or resource).

[Bandobras Took]

The action wasn't "Discard Gates of Morning."

The action was "Discard all resource environment cards in play."

That action absolutely can be declared, as it targets nothing.

And this is my point.

Similarly the action "Asternak makes a cc -2" is not declared so it cannot be targeted by anything in response (tapping in support, or resource).

But "ccs will be made" is declared, so any of those ccs may be targeted.

[Konrad Klar]

Annotation 2: A corruption check or any dice-rolling action can be targeted in the
chain of effects during which it was declared.

Which exactly of ccs? All ccs together?

[Bandobras Took]

Whichever one you want. You choose a cc among those available, just as one chooses any other target among those available.

[Konrad Klar]

1.
A Malady Without Healing is being played on character A, shadow-magic using character is B.
In response Voices of Malice is played by character A.

Voices of Malice resolves and A is eliminated by cc.
A Malady Without Healing loses targets of first cc and bc, therefore fizzles. Right?
Malady specifies that character will be target of first cc, bc, and second cc.
First cc has its targer, bc has its target, and second cc has its target.

2.
Gates of Morning card is in play.

Doors of Night is declared.
Twilight on Gates of Morning is declared.
Crown of Flowers is declared.

Crown of Flowers resolves.
Twilight resolves and discards GoM.
Doors of Night resolves discarding Crown of Flowers.

Right? Or not?
Was "Discard GoM" declared at point of declaration of DoN?
Was "Discard Crown of Flowers" declared at point of declaration of DoN?
Or maybe none of above was declared, but "Discard all resource environment cards in play." (Whichever will be at resolution of DoN).

3. How different is mechanics of Doors of Night and mechanics of Ren Unleashed?

[Bandobras Took]

1. Just as a humorous note, for that situation to occur, the resource player must have a very odd strategy going on. Other than that, yes.

2. That's right.

Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.

You don't have to specify what's going to be discarded; Doors of Night affects an entire class of things.

3. There isn't a difference in this respect, so far as I know. Doors of Night affects an entire class of things (resource environment cards/effects). Ren Unleashed also affects an entire class of things (causing them to make corruption checks). As long as a character meets the requirements for Ren Unleashed, they will be making a corruption check when it resolves, and that corruption check may be targeted within the chain.

[Konrad Klar]

2. That's right.

You don't have to specify what's going to be discarded; Doors of Night affects an entire class of things

3. There isn't a difference in this respect, so far as I know. Doors of Night affects an entire class of things (resource environment cards/effects). Ren Unleashed also affects an entire class of things (causing them to make corruption checks).

So you do not need to specify that character A, character B, and so on will make cc. "Character A makes cc-2" is not declared with declaration of Ren Unleashed.

Anyway you may target this cc according to:

Annotation 2: A corruption check or any dice-rolling action can be targeted in the
chain of effects during which it was declared.

Right?

[Bandobras Took]

That's how I understand it. The character isn't being targeted, but a cc will be performed if the character meets the conditions.

[kober]

When tapped, Ren the Unclean becomes a short-event; each character in play must make a corruption check.

Is it legal to declare any actions/cards, which don't directly affect the corruption checks, between the tapping of Ren the Unclean and the corruption checks ? For example, could the resource player attempt to remove a corruption card on one of his characters?

[Konrad Klar]

Do you mean in response to tapping Ren?
Anything otherwise legal, related or unrelated to the corruption checks.