Prior to combat, Token of Goodwill attempts to influence the would-be attacker to instead accept an item and leave his company alone. It must be made by a diplomat... the card states that unused D.I. will be added as a bonus. Everything about this card refers to an influence attempt.... not a combat trick that takes place during the strike sequence.
Where is there a rule that states a race specific bonus for D.I. for an influence attempt cannot be used towards an attack type if it occurs in the proper context of a card?
3 Questions about Influencing. One for Netrep.
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Well, everything except, you know, the actual card text.the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:01 am Prior to combat, Token of Goodwill attempts to influence the would-be attacker to instead accept an item and leave his company alone. It must be made by a diplomat... the card states that unused D.I. will be added as a bonus. Everything about this card refers to an influence attempt
Which says Offering Attempt.
That's something different.
Emphasis added. An Offering Attempt is not an influence attempt. Compare Scatha at Home with Times Are Evil. Scatha will not affect Token. Times Are Evil will affect Token. Offering Attempts do not have any specific rules about them, so far as I know.Foolish Words wrote:Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4.
On the other hand, for influence, we have the following:
Token of Goodwill has been ruled as using unrestricted influence to modify the roll. Because restricted influence is, after all, restricted.CRF, Influence wrote:Restricted direct influence is limited in its use, usually to characters and/or factions of specific races. Unrestricted influence has no use restrictions.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- the JabberwocK
- Ex Council Chairman
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am
Ok, yes, Influence attempts and Offering attempts are technically different, albeit similar. Is there a rule that forbids the use of race specific restricted D.I. for an Offering Attempt? If so, I rest my case.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:21 am
Well, everything except, you know, the actual card text.
Which says Offering Attempt.
That's something different.
Emphasis added. An Offering Attempt is not an influence attempt. Compare Scatha at Home with Times Are Evil. Scatha will not affect Token. Times Are Evil will affect Token. Offering Attempts do not have any specific rules about them, so far as I know.Foolish Words wrote:Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by the target character is modified by -4.
You are making an assumption here that is most likely not correct. Restricted influence is just that - restricted to a particular race/faction, etc. So long as it is being used only towards that race it shouldn't be considered anymore restricted than unrestricted D.I.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:21 am On the other hand, for influence, we have the following:
Token of Goodwill has been ruled as using unrestricted influence to modify the roll. Because restricted influence is, after all, restricted.CRF, Influence wrote:Restricted direct influence is limited in its use, usually to characters and/or factions of specific races. Unrestricted influence has no use restrictions.
The quote above is just a generalized statement explaining the difference between the two. I don't see how it applies to this conversation.
Token of Goodwill states to add the diplomats unused direct influence. It doesn't say to add his unused unrestricted direct influence. If the restricted D.I. can apply (based on race) then it should apply.
- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 4352
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
"+1 direct influence against Men and Man factions."
does not specify influence attempts, or controlling.
There is only text of Token of Goodwill.
The text says that a dice roll is made, the roll is modified by unused DI of target diplomat, and the its result is compared to given value depending on against which type of attack the roll was made.
There is no need for rule for every situation, or type of card. How to handle the situation or use the card may be concluded from existing text (of rules and cards).
If some restricted DI is restricted to given race it is restricted to given race, not more.
If a roll modified by DI is made against an entity and the entity has race I do not see a reason for not using the DI restricted to the entity's race.
does not specify influence attempts, or controlling.
I do not say that an offering attempt is an influence attempt. And there are no any specific rules for offering attempts.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:21 am Emphasis added. An Offering Attempt is not an influence attempt. Compare Scatha at Home with Times Are Evil. Scatha will not affect Token. Times Are Evil will affect Token. Offering Attempts do not have any specific rules about them, so far as I know.
There is only text of Token of Goodwill.
The text says that a dice roll is made, the roll is modified by unused DI of target diplomat, and the its result is compared to given value depending on against which type of attack the roll was made.
There is no need for rule for every situation, or type of card. How to handle the situation or use the card may be concluded from existing text (of rules and cards).
If some restricted DI is restricted to given race it is restricted to given race, not more.
If a roll modified by DI is made against an entity and the entity has race I do not see a reason for not using the DI restricted to the entity's race.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Again, though, this relies on the assumption that the roll is against the attack in question -- which is reasonable to assume, but it's (in my mind, at least) as reasonable to believe that the roll is not against the attack, but rather just a roll that is then compared to values listed on Token to describe what effect the card has.
As I said before, I'm not arguing that the ruling is valid so much as saying that I can see the reasoning that led to it.
As I said before, I'm not arguing that the ruling is valid so much as saying that I can see the reasoning that led to it.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 4352
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Trying to recreate a lost post (and to add something more):
"+1 direct influence against Men and Man factions."
If "+1 direct influence against Men" would apply to any entity of race/type Man/Men against which the attempt using influence is made, then " and Man factions." is redundant.
Maybe ICE had at mind "against Men character(s)" when they wrote "against Men".
Nevertheless they wrote what they wrote. And since introduction an other type attempts using influence, a new applications for DI restricted solely to race/type has appeared.
Until a rule like:
"DI restricted to given race and that does not specify a type of entity, may be used only against characters of the race"
will be made I will support the opinion:
If some restricted DI is restricted to given race it is restricted to given race, not more.
If a roll modified by DI is made against an entity and the entity has race I do not see a reason for not using the DI restricted to the entity's race.
But the roll is "Against Men, Slayer, or any agent: minor item/7.
"+1 direct influence against Men and Man factions."
If "+1 direct influence against Men" would apply to any entity of race/type Man/Men against which the attempt using influence is made, then " and Man factions." is redundant.
Maybe ICE had at mind "against Men character(s)" when they wrote "against Men".
Nevertheless they wrote what they wrote. And since introduction an other type attempts using influence, a new applications for DI restricted solely to race/type has appeared.
Until a rule like:
"DI restricted to given race and that does not specify a type of entity, may be used only against characters of the race"
will be made I will support the opinion:
If some restricted DI is restricted to given race it is restricted to given race, not more.
If a roll modified by DI is made against an entity and the entity has race I do not see a reason for not using the DI restricted to the entity's race.
I would agree I the roll would be made "Against 7: Men, Slayer, or any agent (minor item).Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:36 pm [...] but it's (in my mind, at least) as reasonable to believe that the roll is not against the attack, but rather just a roll that is then compared to values listed on Token to describe what effect the card has.
But the roll is "Against Men, Slayer, or any agent: minor item/7.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Ah right. And I think I had said something about this being such a rule for me:Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:23 am Until a rule like:
"DI restricted to given race and that does not specify a type of entity, may be used only against characters of the race"
will be made...
At least, when lacking indications of being contrary to this "usually".CRF wrote:Restricted direct influence is limited in its use, usually to characters and/or factions of specific races. Unrestricted influence has no use restrictions.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
- the JabberwocK
- Ex Council Chairman
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am
Personally, I think this is just making a general statement and one shouldn't read too much into it. It's a basic explanation of one aspect of the game.CRF wrote:Restricted direct influence is limited in its use, usually to characters and/or factions of specific races. Unrestricted influence has no use restrictions.
And... "Usually" is just, ummm, "Usually"....
- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 4352
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
I think that it may be applicable if an influence attempt is being made using Threats.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:29 pm I'm not arguing that the ruling is valid so much as saying that I can see the reasoning that led to it.
In this case, "against" whatever refers to the attack type the Diplomat's company is facing.
I don't think anybody's going to claim this applies during influence attempts.Gulla wrote:+1 prowess against Orcs and Elves.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
That would be consistent with your interpretation, yes.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.