Ready to his Will (clarification)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CRF, Errata (cards), Ready to his Will wrote:Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.
[sic!]

I propose the following change:

Note that effects of a cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as actions caused by a passive condition, declared once an attack of the right type is faced. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.

("faced", not "in play". Mere presence in play of an automatic-attacks should not activate an affects of cards like Rank Upon Rank [in my opinion])
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:24 am
I propose the following change:

Note that effects of a cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as actions caused by a passive condition, declared once an attack of the right type is faced. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.
This is incorrect and misleading. The effects of Rank upon Rank are not necessarily "declared once an attack of the right type is faced." Some of the effects of Rank Upon Rank happen immediately "when such an affected attack is defeated."
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:24 am
("faced", not "in play". Mere presence in play of an automatic-attacks should not activate an affects of cards like Rank Upon Rank [in my opinion])
There is no difference on gameplay so why bother changing it? Especially as this is just a ruling.

Konrad Klar
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:34 pm
This is incorrect and misleading. The effects of Rank upon Rank are not necessarily "declared once an attack of the right type is faced." Some of the effects of Rank Upon Rank happen immediately "when such an affected attack is defeated."
Thanks for being strict.
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:34 pm
There is no difference on gameplay so why bother changing it? Especially as this is just a ruling.
You was not too bored to mention "when such an affected attack is defeated."

So imagine Tiding of Bold Spies played on company moving to Bandit's Lair when Rank upon Rank is in play.
Still no difference?
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CDavis7M
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:21 am
You was not too bored to mention "when such an affected attack is defeated."
My lost comment was a casualty of editing and proofreading.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:21 am
So imagine Tiding of Bold Spies played on company moving to Bandit's Lair when Rank upon Rank is in play.
Still no difference?
I am wondering if there is a scenario where there is a difference (between applying Rank when faced vs in play), but this is not such a scenario.

Tidings will duplicate the automatic attack at Bandit Lair: "Men -- 3 strikes with 6 prowess"
Which ultimately be "Men -- 4 strikes with 7 prowess" regardless of whether Rank is applied when "faced" vs "in play."
The attack is 4 with 7 either before Tidings is declared if Rank Upon Rank is applied "once an attack of the right type is in play." or after Tidings resolves if Rank Upon Rank is "declared once an attack of the right type is faced."

There is no difference in game play.

Konrad Klar
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:16 pm
There is no difference in game play.
While at the same time an automatic attack at Bandit Lair: "Men -- 3 strikes with 6 prowess" is in play but not faced.
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:34 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 12:24
("faced", not "in play". Mere presence in play of an automatic-attacks should not activate an affects of cards like Rank Upon Rank [in my opinion])
There is no difference on gameplay so why bother changing it? Especially as this is just a ruling.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Was this errata intended to actually change the rules? (The CRF ruling is not a change to the rules.)

If so, which ones?

Konrad Klar
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar »

This clarification in its original state is sloppy worded. For this reason it cannot be applied if read literally.
"cards like Rank Upon Rank" are not applied, effects of "cards like Rank Upon Rank" can be applied applied.

Effects of "cards like Rank Upon Rank" include modifying of number of strikes and/or prowess of attack. Discarding of a card "when such an affected attack is defeated." is not common effect for "cards like Rank Upon Rank".

It is difficult to estimate how the clarification was interpreted before errata and how the errata changed someone's gameplay.
Anyway, as always, an errata addresses some texts, not behaviors of players.

EDIT: address -> addresses
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CDavis7M
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Re: Ready to his Will (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:46 pm
This clarification in its original state is sloppy worded.
The context is "Ready to His Will," which operates on hazard creatures. In this context, the CRF clarification is clear.
The CoE errata making the clarification longer and more accurate in some respects (inaccurate in others) does not necessarily make it more clear. And because the CoE Errata contradicts the text of Rank Upon Rank and the rules on passive conditions, it is less clear.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:24 am
I propose the following change:
Note that effects of a cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as actions caused by a passive condition, declared once an attack of the right type is faced. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.
This change contradicts Annotation 9 and the text of Rank Upon Rank. Annotation 9 states: "If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition". Rank Upon Rank states "All non-agent Man attacks." The passive condition triggering the action is a "man attack," which is produced when the card creating the attack is resolved, not when the attack is faced (as indicated by this CoE Errata).
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:24 am
("faced", not "in play". Mere presence in play of an automatic-attacks should not activate an affects of cards like Rank Upon Rank [in my opinion])
I went back and read the rules and noticed this is already covered. Could be fun to discover why on your own, but let me know if you can't find it (hint: Rank Upon Rank is a hazard).

So then the CoE errata is entirely unnecessary and it creates additional confusion by contradicting the rules, suggesting that an attack would need to be faced in order to trigger a passive condition, potentially causing problems with other cards affecting attacks that trigger using passive conditions (e.g., Forewarned is Forearmed).

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