Bow of Alatar

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

That is not what reassigning means. It is meaningless without an initial assignment of strikes.

(edited previous post to add final point)
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Theo wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:23 pm That is not what reassigning means. It is meaningless without an initial assignment of strikes.
Right.
Theo wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:09 pm Alatar does not reassign strikes, since his ability can only be triggered before strikes are initially assigned.
Anyway Alatar is listed as the card which reassigns strikes.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

As he could have were it not for the CRF entry which requires that he face a strike first.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If they did not mean by "reassigning" strikes a changing an order of assigning strikes, then a changing an order of assigning strikes is not covered by rules at all.
Right?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Zakath
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:15 am
Location: United States

My own opinion is that ICE never meant for any card or effect to change who actually faces a strike after the strike assignment portion of resolving an attack was complete. All such cards work perfectly fine if you have to sort out any special restrictions or abilities on who faces strikes before moving on to any character's strike sequence.

But I can absolutely see how it can be read the other way. It might just have to come down to what the voters think will make for a better gameplay experience going forward. It's not like we can go back and ask ICE for clarification now. :?
User avatar
the JabberwocK
Ex Council Chairman
Posts: 1156
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

I remember having a lengthy debate about Bow of Alatar when it came up for the first time in our playgroup last year.

While I disagree with Moriquendi's interpretation of how this card was meant to be used, I do agree it is a very worthwhile issue to get sorted out with an official clarification.
User avatar
rezwits
Council Member
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:41 am I agree with Zakath.
Text of Bow of Alatar may be not super clear, but it contains everything what is required to interpret it, and does not contain errors.
As such it requires only clarification.
"May only by tapped for its effect before a strikes are assigned."
I agree with Konrad.

The usage of the Bow of Alatar, is similar to his innate ability, to face a strike.

But IMHO, this card strictly has usage for Alatar to go up to a sweet spot, and hit the pipe, (i.e. Tapping to sideboard, every turn). Then while sideboarding EVERY turn (tapped) he still gets to take a "pot shot!"

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not Skin-changer, it's not Usriev of Treachery, etc
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

No one mentioned annotation 18?
CRF, turn, combat, Strike Sequence wrote:Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a particular character, the only actions that may be taken by either player until the strike dice-roll is made are the following:

playing hazard cards that affect the strike,

the attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes in excess of the company's size,

a target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap, and

the defending character may play resource cards that affect the strike.

An action that has the condition that a target character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be declared at this point.
The ONLY resources that "affect the strike" are resources that cancel the strike and resources that modify the roll itself (e.g., giving +1 to character's prowess or -1 to the strike's prowess). Bow of Alatar doesn't affect the strike.


Alatar himself already has a similar CRF statement to this proposal:
Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.
What what I can see, all strike assignments are made with full knowledge of the effects on strike assignment.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Having someone else face the strike affects the strike. I would say in a more-major way than just about anything else.

But it seems like incorrect language to change who faces a strike for a strike that a character is already in the process of resolving.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

There is an ICE Ruling on the topic of whether resources can be used to allow one character to face/steal/reassign strikes that were already assigned to another character.
ICE Digest 34 and 37 wrote:>#2) Usriev of Treachery. A company of 3 characters(X,Y,Z) is facing an attack of 5 strikes, and X bears an Usriev. Can the Usriev be used to protect Z(for example) from having to face any strikes at all? Or, because the strike originally assigned to Z was reassigned by the Usriev to X, then Z must be assigned one of the remaining two strikes? I'm confused.

It wouldn't work. Let's say only X is untapped. You assign a strike to X. You use Ursiev to assign a second strike to X. Then there are still 3 strikes to assign to Y and Z, so they each get one. If Y and Z already had strikes assigned to them when you assigned the first strike to X, you could not "reassign" their strikes to X, the second strike would have to be one of the unassigned strikes.

-----

>Truth be told, the original question was whether or not the Usriev could be used to reassign strikes once they were assigned(i.e., could the Usriev protect a character from having to face ANY strikes). Now, here's another question: Can the hazard player use an "attacker chooses defenders" creature to FORCE the Usriev's wielder to face two strikes?

No.
From what I have seen, there is no possibility for one character to face a strike that has been assigned to another character. I agree that the CRF on "reassigning" (really just "assigning" different from normal) is what Bow of Alatar does.

Also, consider when the effect of Bow of Alatar would be used if it could "steal" an assigned strike -- at Step 4) of the Strike Sequence.

Image

It doesn't make sense to 0) declare that one character will resolve a strike, 2) allocate -1 prowess modifications to that character for excess strikes, 3) give that character a -3 modification or not, but then 4) have Alatar resolve that strike instead of the original character. Consider -- Would Alatar not receive any prowess modifications? Would the original character be tapped as a result of facing the strike instead of Alatar? It just doesn't work out.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Did you not follow my previous post? Once a strike is chosen as the next to be faced then there could be no benefit from using the Bow.
I see no reason that the Bow could not be used up until then to relieve the assigned character from facing the strike.

Also, the Usriev effect triggers when the first strike is assigned; it has nothing to do with reassigning strikes, or facing strikes originally assigned to other characters. Perhaps you should move your post into a separate thread.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I did follow your post but I guess you didn't follow mine. Possible points in the game to use Bow of Alatar (discussed in this post and related posts) are (A) before strikes are assigned, (B) after strikes are assigned but before strikes are resolved, and (C) during resolution of a strike. I believe you are suggesting that (B) is possible since you stated "I see no reason that the Bow could not be used up until then to relieve the assigned character from facing the strike."

Image

Clearly (C) "using Bow of Alatar during resolution of a strike in the strike sequence" makes no sense. If Bow of Alatar even could be used during the strike sequence then it would HAVE to be used at Step 4. However, that is ridiculous because it would mean that the Hazard Player could play Weariness of the Heart on Elrond (for example) at Step 1, assign Elrond -1 prowess modifications at Step 2, and then the Resource Player could have Elrond take the -3 modification to prowess so that he doesn't tap at Step 3, and then at Step 4, Alatar would use Bow of Alatar to face the strike without any modifications to prowess while Elrond's prowess has been modified but he can't be wounded. That's bogus.

As for (B) "using Bow of Alatar after Strikes are assigned but before strikes are resolved" this also doesn't make sense given the rules on ATTACKS & STRIKES: "All of the factors affecting a strike must be decided during the strike sequence." Especially by your own statement "Having someone else face the strike affects the strike. I would say in a more-major way than just about anything else." If using Bow of Alatar to face someone else's assigned strike affects the strike in a major way, as you say, then it would have to be used during the strike sequence. And that is bogus as discussed above in this post and my previous post.

Furthermore, why not just use Bow of Alatar (C) "before strikes are assigned" in the first place? The rules on ATTACKS & STRIKES state "Each character can be the target of only one strike from a given attack." Bow of Alatar does not let Alatar face multiple strikes. So it's not like Alatar can steal a strike to face multiple strikes. Might as well just Bow of Alatar up front. If the original post had included the game play scenario where this "stealing" of strikes was attempted, it would probably make more sense as to why stealing is both against the rules on attacks and needless.

Yes, Bow of Alatar says "face a strike" and "face" is used the same as "resolve" in the examples the rulesbook. However, Alatar himself also says "face one of the hazard creature's strikes" and this has long been ruled to refer to assignment of strikes, not resolution of strikes. The difference here is that while Alatar's ability requires the attack to be from a hazard creature and for Alatar to be in a Haven, Bow of Alatar provides the same ability while being usable against any attack faced by his company, including non-creature attacks.

If you want to discuss alternative game formats without the Strike Sequence, perhaps you should post in the Alternative Game Format section: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:55 pm As for (B) "using Bow of Alatar after Strikes are assigned but before strikes are resolved" this also doesn't make sense given the rules on ATTACKS & STRIKES: "All of the factors affecting a strike must be decided during the strike sequence." Especially by your own statement "Having someone else face the strike affects the strike. I would say in a more-major way than just about anything else." If using Bow of Alatar to face someone else's assigned strike affects the strike in a major way, as you say, then it would have to be used during the strike sequence. And that is bogus as discussed above in this post and my previous post.
By this reasoning, would it rather become impossible to assign strikes at all, since assigning a strike (including who by default will face it) necessarily must happen before that strike's sequence begins. So either who is assigned/facing it is not considered a factor effecting the strike (which seems an abuse of language), or the "must be decided during" means only that at some point during the strike sequence all factors reached a decided state, rather than becoming decided in such moments.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:55 pm Furthermore, why not just use Bow of Alatar (C) "before strikes are assigned" in the first place? The rules on ATTACKS & STRIKES state "Each character can be the target of only one strike from a given attack." Bow of Alatar does not let Alatar face multiple strikes. So it's not like Alatar can steal a strike to face multiple strikes. Might as well just Bow of Alatar up front. If the original post had included the game play scenario where this "stealing" of strikes was attempted, it would probably make more sense as to why stealing is both against the rules on attacks and needless.
Your hypothesis seems based on the idea that facing a strike means you are targeted by the strike. Again, my interpretation is that the assignment of a strike determines the target of the strike (as indeed that is the use in the rulebook); who faces the strike does not at all affect to whom the strike was (or will be, perhaps) assigned.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:55 pm Yes, Bow of Alatar says "face a strike" and "face" is used the same as "resolve" in the examples the rulesbook. However, Alatar himself also says "face one of the hazard creature's strikes" and this has long been ruled to refer to assignment of strikes, not resolution of strikes. The difference here is that while Alatar's ability requires the attack to be from a hazard creature and for Alatar to be in a Haven, Bow of Alatar provides the same ability while being usable against any attack faced by his company, including non-creature attacks.
Alatar CRF does not say he is assigned the strike, but explicitly says that he must face the strike. "Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes." has ambiguous "other": it could either be meant to modify the entire end of the sentence, or just the following "effects" and then that phrase is modified by the rest of the sentence. I believe the latter, which of the two options does allow the preservation of "'face' is used the same as 'resolve'". The relevant difference between Wizard and Bow that you seem to have conveniently not mentioned is that Alatar must use his ability in response to the attack, while the Bow has no such restriction. Alatar must declare facing a target strike before strikes are assigned, and the CRF clarifies that this requirement is not then obsoleted by any proceeding assignment.

Have I adequately addressed for you how my conclusions can be consistent with all of the rules? Or can you speak more to my concerns with your interpretation of "decided during" and your deliberate odds with "'face' is used the same as 'resolve'"?
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:04 am Alatar CRF does not say he is assigned the strike, but explicitly says that he must face the strike. "Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes." has ambiguous "other": it could either be meant to modify the entire end of the sentence, or just the following "effects" and then that phrase is modified by the rest of the sentence.
The CRF also says: Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.
ICE wrote:Q:Does Alatar use his teleport ability before or after strikes are assigned? For attacks that choose defending characters like cave drake and slayer, can Alatar choose himself to take a strike/attack?

He 'ports before strikes are assigned, and he must take a strike, regardless of who assigns them.
Alatar doesn't just face the strike, he is assigned the strike. Bow of Alatar operates similarly.

----------
Theo wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:04 am Again, my interpretation is that the assignment of a strike determines the target of the strike (as indeed that is the use in the rulebook); who faces the strike does not at all affect to whom the strike was (or will be, perhaps) assigned.
...
Have I adequately addressed for you how my conclusions can be consistent with all of the rules?
Since your interpretation is that the target of the strike is not the character that faces the strike then this case is closed.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

What if Alatar will teleport to a company facing Neeker-breekers ?
Does he must face a strike that he is not able to face?

The word "must" in text of CRF entry for Alatar is so precise as precise is the word "reassign" in respective paragraph of CRF.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “2019 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”