Fallen Wizard MPs for Palantirs

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
rezwits
Council Member
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

I had to submit at least one AVR request.

This request is very simple.

Items for Fallen-wizards, such as:

Palantír of Orthanc
Palantír of Elostirion

Should be scored normally, i.e. as according to the Fallen Wizard rule book.

1 MP each until a stage card or other can alter the MP amount.

This is an egregious oversight by the older rules commitee.

I want the discussion to continue about this as needed henceforth, but to me, I just don't see Saruman camping/squatting, or whatever your gameplay argument is, at Isengard some kind/type of BAD play, or BORING play, even for Pallando. They are who they are and the game should be the game.

I beilieve the old ruling was 99% biased, and should be annulled.
NetRep Ruling #21 wrote:What is the reason that the Palantíri of Orthanc and Elostirion don't give MP's to Fallen-wizards?
*** This was created to try to make squatting Fallen Wizards less powerful.
Standard scoring please...

[-me_wh-]-PM-ME-IF
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Given that any FW can play a Wizard's Ring at a Haven and get two item MPs (as well as enough DI for a 2 MP character), I don't think this needs to be in force any more, either.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I'd be more interested in nerfing other strategies to create more opportunities with lesser used cards than removing nerfs.

http://www.fallen-gandalf.net/results/worlds.html

Seems like Balrog, FW, and One Ring decks do best. So I'm not sure that FW need a couple more easy MP. But I also agree that palantir nerf was poorly implemented. It just seems dumb.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Bandobras Took wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 1:33 pm Given that any FW can play a Wizard's Ring at a Haven and get two item MPs (as well as enough DI for a 2 MP character), I don't think this needs to be in force any more, either.
Wizard's Ring carries more requirements and a significant risk with it. Jabberwock once hit me with a clever Balance of Things and even my 5 supporting party members couldn't save my Ringed FW. O_O This proposal would enable dropping 6 more MP by any 1-mind nobody (no offense, Barliman!) with essentially zero risk (1 storage or Reckoning corruption check each, at 1/12 chance without aid). If this were changed, there would be nearly no reason for every Fallen Wizard deck to not include Elostirion if not both of these Palantir. The card abilities themselves aren't nerfed, just their unparalleled easy MP.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

@ Theo:

That just falls into the realm of play and counterplay; there are plenty of ways to wipe out the 1-mind squatter. And as things stand now, it doesn't even axe Gandalf's Palantir of MT.

@ CDavis7M:

If you want to nerf other strategies, then Legacy of Smiths needs to operate on the same lines as Gatherer of Loyalties: your unique items are worth 2 MPs, if you are Saruman, your unique weapon/armor/shield/helmet items normally worth 3 or more MPs are worth 3 MPs. As it stands, getting 2 MPs off of a Palantir at Towers/Isengard seems rather paltry compared to the 9 MPs available from taking a trip to the deep mines.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Bandobras Took wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:16 pm @ Theo:

That just falls into the realm of play and counterplay; there are plenty of ways to wipe out the 1-mind squatter. And as things stand now, it doesn't even axe Gandalf's Palantir of MT.
Wiping out a 1-mind squatter at a special site such that the player loses a Hidden Haven (or something) is totally worth it. Wiping out a 1-mind squatter at a normal haven? Probably a hazard waste, as it is easily replaceable.

And it's 3 MP per minion Palantir.

Fallen Gandalf at Minas Tirith comes with more restrictions. It requires another card to make it a Haven to be able to protect the Palantir from stealing/character loss, and it uses up a tapping of a site that will require another card to untap, and character play there is more restrictive.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Moriquendi
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:46 pm
Location: Denver

I asked this question a number of months back as well and agree with this 100%.

I don't see reversing this old ruling as being to OP, just adding more gameplay possibilities back into FW's.

I may be biased though, as I've been playing a lot of FW decks recently.

Also, never underestimate the power a 1-mind nobody. Ask Gavin how he feels about Luitiprand. :lol:
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Theo wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 5:39 pmWiping out a 1-mind squatter at a special site such that the player loses a Hidden Haven (or something) is totally worth it. Wiping out a 1-mind squatter at a normal haven? Probably a hazard waste, as it is easily replaceable.
And thereby wiping out the Palantir, as well.
And it's 3 MP per minion Palantir.
And 3 CP, making it even easier to get rid of.
Fallen Gandalf at Minas Tirith comes with more restrictions. It requires another card to make it a Haven to be able to protect the Palantir from stealing/character loss, and it uses up a tapping of a site that will require another card to untap, and character play there is more restrictive.
In practice, the Palantir of MT requires you to play Gandalf and Chambers during the Org Phase and then sit there doing wizard stuff, which he was likely going to do anyway.

Again, it's a question of play/counterplay. The palantiri at the default havens don't bring anything that FWs don't essentially already have. With the ready availability of allies/factions at havens, I'm not sure why a couple of items need specifically to be singled out.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
rezwits
Council Member
Posts: 563
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

My one argument, if I need to start one was, in General, corruption exist in this game, or am I missing something? :P

If a FW got one corruption card played on him while "resting" at his haven, that's a game within the game, that he's going to have to deal with. So in major play/tourney play, corruption is there, I couldn't really see the problem.
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Bandobras Took wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 6:01 pm And thereby wiping out the Palantir, as well.
...
And 3 CP, making it even easier to get rid of.
Fallen Gandalf at Minas Tirith comes with more restrictions. It requires another card to make it a Haven to be able to protect the Palantir from stealing/character loss, and it uses up a tapping of a site that will require another card to untap, and character play there is more restrictive.
In practice, the Palantir of MT requires you to play Gandalf and Chambers during the Org Phase and then sit there doing wizard stuff, which he was likely going to do anyway.

Again, it's a question of play/counterplay. The palantiri at the default havens don't bring anything that FWs don't essentially already have. With the ready availability of allies/factions at havens, I'm not sure why a couple of items need specifically to be singled out.
Summary response: Because you're at a Haven, a Palantir at risk can be stored immediately. There is no hazard turn in between. Sure, you can on-guard one Lure of Expedience. Or Neither so Ancient for -1 point. That's about it.

Please explain anything anyone "already" has that you see on par with this.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Bane of the Ithil-Stone causes a storage check for a Minion Palantir to be made at 6. Even the 4 for a hero palantir is pretty drastic. And that's assuming you aren't playing any corruption on the 1-minder you see hanging around the haven. It gets even worse with Balance of Things.

(Marvels Told, Tapping Out Sages, Untappers)

Play and counterplay.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Vastor Peredhil
Council Member
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:46 am
Location: Kempen (Niederrhein) Germany

I am all in favor of it, but I could also go on route with the DC rules for play at haven, all MPs card only playable at a haven for that alignment are worth 1 MP (so Wizard's Ring for all wizards, Orcs of Moria for Balrog, and there are some more)

just saying we need not have to have 2 different rules set, when we already came up with good solution

yours Nicolai
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Many refused the summons, preferring varied hindsight and the retraces of Middle-earth to the rumour of DCs.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Vastor Peredhil wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 2:55 pm just saying we need not have to have 2 different rules set, when we already came up with good solution
Alternatively, since rezwits already plays DC, I'm not sure what his motivation is for making this proposal. Impose the DC notion of "balance" on the normal rules set? Why not just keep it in DC?
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Bandobras Took wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 2:41 pm Play and counterplay.
I'm not saying there is no way to attempt to counter. This does not change that this proposal would still allow the most MP for about the absolute minimal difficulty and risk, I would say especially if one attempts to generally consider the threat of "counterplays". <-- This does not seem to be true for DC, so why not take it there?

Alternatively, there must be some card play that is the most MP for minimal difficulty and risk. Who am I to say it shouldn't belong to FW? But, indisputably, somewhere in the murky past the game designers didn't think this should be it.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
Post Reply

Return to “2019 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”