Open to the Summons

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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the Jabberwock
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Open to the Summons

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed May 15, 2019 7:59 pm

I think it needs to be specified whether or not this card allows the play of an additional character during the turn if all other conditions are met.

I propose a vote to issue an official clarification:
Open to the Summons allows an additional character to be played during the turn.
OR
Open to the Summons does not allow an additional character to be played during the turn.
This topic is similar in ways to the Thrall of the Voice topic posted here: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3794

Reference Topic: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=3797

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CDavis7M
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:35 pm

I agree with Konrad's point 3 (copied below). This seems to be an accurate reflection of how cards are intended to be played.
3. Unless stated otherwise in text of a card, if non-short-event card states that player may take some standard action (i.e. action that otherwise can be taken without additional card/effect at appropriate point of turn), but altered in some way by text of the card, the action may be taken at the point when it otherwise may be taken, and standard conditions of taking the action (other than these altered by text of the card) must be fulfilled.
So, the normal 1 character per turn rule would apply unless the card specifically mentioned otherwise, which it doesn't.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:57 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:35 pm
I agree with Konrad's point 3 (copied below). This seems to be an accurate reflection of how cards are intended to be played.
3. Unless stated otherwise in text of a card, if non-short-event card states that player may take some standard action (i.e. action that otherwise can be taken without additional card/effect at appropriate point of turn), but altered in some way by text of the card, the action may be taken at the point when it otherwise may be taken, and standard conditions of taking the action (other than these altered by text of the card) must be fulfilled.
So, the normal 1 character per turn rule would apply unless the card specifically mentioned otherwise, which it doesn't.
I also agree with Konrad's point #3, however, it is not an actual rule, so it doesn't fix the current problem.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:26 am

I think it is in the rules.
The Wizard's Rules 10 · PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS wrote: Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by
the rules
or the cards themselves.
This is a foundational rule applying to every aspect of the game.

My interpretation is that the Rules (eg, one character only per turn may be played during the org phase) prohibit play of additional characters beyond 1, or the play of characters outside of the organization phase. This rule is even in bold font. Here, I interpret anything not specifically allowed by the rules to be "prohibited" by the rules, basically by definition.

Despite the lack of proper wording, A Chance Meeting was intended and ruled to override the Rules. This is unfortunate. It really should have explicit errata.

Without more explicit wording on the card itself, the quoted rule clearly prevents a card from overriding this rule.

There is no indication that additional play allowances were intended by Open to the Summons or Thrall.

To Konrad's other point in the linked thread, I don't agree that all short events create their own playable allowances to override any rules with the need to say so explicitly (as that goes against the rule above).

Other short events suffer some similar issues. Like an attempt to play Old-Road outside of the site phase based on similar reasoning as A Chance Meeting. However, this is not allowed by the fundamental rules of the game (unless you are a chance meeting, or we have come to kill).
CoE 11 wrote:3. I can't find anything that tells me I can't use Old Road in the org phase, or even that it results in the
Haven or the remote site tapping.
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase."
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "The site taps upon successful play of the resource that would tap it."
That factions are (only) playable in the site phase is a rule of the game. Old Road cannot override this, even by virtue of being a short event.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Theo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:46 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:26 am
Despite the lack of proper wording, A Chance Meeting was intended and ruled to override the Rules. This is unfortunate. It really should have explicit errata.
Indeed. Double Standards. ;)
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Double Standards.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:31 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:26 am
To Konrad's other point in the linked thread, I don't agree that all short events create their own playable allowances to override any rules with the need to say so explicitly (as that goes against the rule above).
"Konrad's other point" is that playing a resource short-event is not restricted to any phase of player's turn in other way than by its text. There are no other allowances.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:16 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:31 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:26 am
To Konrad's other point in the linked thread, I don't agree that all short events create their own playable allowances to override any rules with the need to say so explicitly (as that goes against the rule above).
"Konrad's other point" is that playing a resource short-event is not restricted to any phase of player's turn in other way than by its text. There are no other allowances.
Short-events are restricted by rule to having an effect on the game or potential effect. You cannot play a short-event that will have no effect. This is relevant for any short-event that affects a process limited to a certain stage or point of the player's turn.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:31 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:16 pm
Short-events are restricted by rule to having an effect on the game or potential effect.
This does not mean anything.
You can play ACM (even in organization phase) without having character card in hand.
You can play Bounty of the Hoard without having minor/major item card in hand. Etc.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:29 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:26 am
To Konrad's other point in the linked thread, I don't agree that all short events create their own playable allowances to override any rules with the need to say so explicitly (as that goes against the rule above).
"Konrad's other point" is that playing a resource short-event is not restricted to any phase of player's turn in other way than by its text. There are no other allowances.
The play of a short event is also restricted by the Rules of the game, not just by the event's text. This applies to the play of ALL cards and is found in the rules section "PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS". This is a foundation of the game:
Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.
There is also a section of the rules for "BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY". These rules allow characters to be played during the organization phase. It is understood that anything not allowed by the rules is prohibited (eg, you can not play cards directly to your MP pile). Characters may ONLY be played in the organization phase. Therefore, a card that allows you to play a character may only be played in the organization phase. Thrall, Open to the Summons, We Have Come to Kill, and A Chance Meeting do not override this rule or create any additional allowances for play of characters. Though, we know that A Chance Meeting/WHCTK has been given divine permission outside the Circles of the Rules.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:34 pm

Yes. But usually the restrictions imposed by text are more restrictive than that imposed by rules.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:26 pm

First off, there is nothing in the rules to differentiate between Short vs Permanent events playability or their rules-altering ability.

I see the rules as a set of Allowances and the card effects as modifying those Allowances. When a card provides allowances or restrictions, it 100% of the time (except A Chance Meeting and We Have Come to Kill) indicates the rule being altered for the occasion. Any example otherwise is sloppy language, a mistake, or an oversight.

A Chance Meeting is simpler than Open to the Summons so I'll start there.

A Chance Meeting provides additional allowances beyond the rules while also having a restriction. "A character <Allowance - (even a Hobbit)> may be brought into play <Restriction - with direct influence> at any <Allowance - Free-hold, Border-hold, or Ruins & Lairs>."

The normal rule for playing characters being: "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities: You may play a character card. You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character. You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site. ... Before you play your Wizard, you may use general influence to bring a character into play at any haven or at his home site. After revealing your Wizard, you may use general influence to bring a character into play only if your Wizard is at the site at which the character arrives (i.e., a Haven or the character’s home site). "

Normally you are allowed to play a character during the Organization Phase at his home site or at a Haven, and under Direct or General Influence.

With A Chance Meeting, you have the additional allowance of playing the character at a Free-hold, Border-hold, or Ruins & Lairs. However, you also have the restriction of playing the character under Direct influence, and cannot play him under General Influence, which would otherwise be allowed by the rules. A Chance Meeting does not create an allowance that enables the played to go beyond the "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities" rule. So if you are in the site-phase, and you play A Chance Meeting, then you are still beholden to the fundamental rule that "you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves." And the rules only allow play of characters in the Organization phase, thereby prohibiting play of cards outside of that phase. However, the designers of the game have said that A Chance Meeting is intended to be playable in the site-phase. So are we to assume the lack of errata indicatesthe lacking description on the card was an oversight. But why did they not give it errata? Who knows.

What about We Have Come To Kill? It states "A character may be brought into play under general influence or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit."

We have the rule "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities." We Have Come to Kill specifically provides allowances for playing characters beyond one, but it doesn't mention anything about the Organization Phase. But again, the designers of the game have given special permission to We Have Come to Kill similar to A Chance Meeting.
One of the beauties of this card is that it does not have to be played during the organization phase when you normally bring characters into play. You could even use We Have Come to Kill to bring in a character during the site phase, after the automatic-attack has been faced. --Ichabod
What about Open To The Summons? It provides the allowance of "One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven." How does this fit into the rules? The Rules state "If the character is not an agent, you may only play him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site." The rules so not allow playing an agent at a Darkhaven. Open To The Summons creates this allowance. It does not create any other allowances. For example, the agent played via Open To The Summons must still be played according to the character playability rule of "If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence to control the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played."

There is no allowance for Open to the Summons to go beyond the character playability rule of "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities."

The sloppy language leads to other questions What about Burglary? Can it be played in the Organization phase? What about Old Road? Can it be played in the organization phase? Why are A Chance Meeting and We Have Come to Kill special exceptions?



A Shadow of the Past

Why is there not strict adherence to the rules? Why can certain cards be exceptions? Why are most of the rulings completely divorced from the rules of the game? And in past Digests, when someone sensible actually brings up a rule, why does the Ruling seem to not care? I will never know but i have a guess. And someone with more knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong or provide details where i have missed them. Just to be clear, I am talking about Ichabod's rulings, not the later rulings by Gnome, Van, etc, which are even worse than Ichabod as far as actually remember the rules and making consistent and correct rulings.

--Coleman Charlton and Mike Reynolds designed Middle Earth the Wizards.
--Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien was hired by ICE and and was "responsible for answering rules questions online and over the phone, and keeping a file of the rulings that I've made (the CRF). I'm also responsible for editing the Player's Guide, helping design and playtest new expansions, and irritating the Silent Death series editor" (official newsletter #2, August 24, 1998 at http://www.meccg.net/netherlands/meccg/ ... 02high.pdf).

Oh ok. So now we can see why there are discrepancies between the Rules (presumably written by Charlton and Reynolds) and the Rulings and Players Guides (written by Ichabod).

In fact, we don't even have to wonder. Ichabod straight up tells us that he ignores the rules. And that consistency with the rules is merely one factor in ruling:

"Making a new ruling involves several factors: simulation, mechanical balance, and rules consistency. I try to make the rules consistent first... I sometimes make a simulation decision because I feel it is more important than rules consistency... Sometimes I think I know the card text, and I'm wrong. Sometimes I just shoot from the hip without thinking... What I say is official, but is not necessarily the final word. All of the new rulings I make I copy to Mike Reynolds for review. And when a new edition of the CRF comes out both Mike Reynolds and Coleman Charlton review it. If either of them disagrees there is a discussion. Usually it is Mike, as Coleman is not that concerned about the minutae of the rules. About half the time Mike overrules me, and about half the time I remember to bring a knife to the discussion, and he lets me have my way. I would like to ask that everyone not go over my head to Mike when they disagree with one of my rulings. He's going to see any new rulings I make anyway, and when there is a large outcry on the net about anything, I make sure to let him know. "

OK so, Ichabod doesn't necessarily care to make rulings consistent with the rules as long as the ruling provides a better balanced game. No wonder the rules don't align. He straight up tells us he makes sure he gets his way.

A Chance Meeting, Rebuild The Town, and We Have Come to Kill seem to have caused many issues in particular. More questions than anything else. I wonder why. Probably because the rulings contradict the rules.

Rule: "Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text."
Ichabods Ruling: "Nope, don't you dare play Gates of Morning before entering the site" (WTF)

And sometimes we even get errata that is pointless.

Rebuild the Town - Card Erratum: Replace "Playable on" with "Playable during the site phase on." And then to be "perfectly" clear, the CRF states "A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does."

However, you can STILL play Rebuild the Town before the automatic attack given the rule "Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack be faced." This is supported by the CRF "Entities associated with a company include the characters, allies, and items in the company, and any events played on the company or on another entity in the company. The new site and site of origin are not entities associated with the company."

So, events like Rebuilt the Town can still be played before facing an automatic attack because events are only restricted if a company plays them and Rebuild the Town is played on a site, which is not associated with a company. What is going on here?! The Rulings are bogus, but even the errata is bogus? The old Rebuild the Town abuse must have been STRONG to actually get errata.

OK, so, Ichabod gets his way and he gets to make bogus rulings. But why isn't there errata issued to provide consistency with Ichabod's rulings? Ichabod tells us:

"The only reason (besides fixing typos) for issuing errata these days is to fix mechanical problems in the game. We don't issue errata for simulation problems, because there is too much errata as it is."

And Reynolds tells us this in Newsletter 1 (June 27, 98) "My base responsibility is writing card text. 1) communicating with playtesters, 2) developing card text through playtest iterations, 3) keeping a finger on the pulse of our customers, 4) representing the marketing needs of the
game
, 5) writing articles and scenarios for publication, and 6) overseeing the rulings/errata process.."

This all explains why we have bogus rulings that are inconsistent with the rules. You can image Charlton saying "Ichabod, you are in charge of internet rulings and creating a CRF, but don't bother me because although I wrote the rules, I don't care about the minutae. And while Mike would like to keep you in your place, you will likely strong-armed him to your will. We will let your bogus ruling and CRF slide as long as you hide all of the Rulings away in an internet CRF hosted on your own website (that is now dead to the world, though luckily backed up and maintained by MECCG.net). The Marketing department and investors have demanded that we don't issue any further errata unless necessary to not scare away new players because we still have thousands of boxes of The Dragons and White Hand sitting on the shelves and the Distributors are starting to demand that we buy-back unsold stock. And plus this ship is sinking and we don't have the time to deal with this right now. "

And in Ichabod's honor, the 2018 CoE issued a worthless "clarification" to A Chance Meeting that doesn't actually affect how the card is played, just how Ichabod would have wanted it.



All of this is conjecture and I don't know any of these people or have any contemporaneous experience with them or the game. But let me know if you think otherwise. This tangent probably deserves its own discussion and so I'll start a new thread elsewhere at some point.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:00 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:26 pm
First off, there is nothing in the rules to differentiate between Short vs Permanent events playability or their rules-altering ability.
There is something about durability of their effects.
If text of short-event does not state otherwise the actions that it allows, may be only be taken at its resolution.
There are some short-events that allow for playing extra item, but they are by their text limited to site phase.

And no. There is no rule that says that characters may be played only in organization phase.
Without use any other cards/effects player may play or discard up to one character in organization phase.
Playing/discarding additional characters, or in other phase requires other cards/effects.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:00 pm
There is something about durability of their effects.
I did not mean to imply there were no differences in effect duration as that is clear given the names "short" and "permanent."
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:00 pm
And no. There is no rule that says that characters may be played only in organization phase.
Without use any other cards/effects player may play or discard up to one character in organization phase.
Playing/discarding additional characters, or in other phase requires other cards/effects.
There is a rule that says no characters can be played outside of the organization phase. There are 2 sections of rules for entitled "BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY", one in the Starter Rules and then in the Standard rules. These only allow play of characters in the organization phase.

Image
Image

Both statements cannot be true:
1.There is no rule that says that characters may be played only in organization phase. (this assume that only things specifically prohibited by the rules are actually prohibited)
2. Playing/discarding additional characters, or in other phase requires other cards/effects.

First of all, it's clear that play of characters is restricted to the organization phase despite the somewhat sloppy wording. If (1) there is no rule restricting play of characters to the organization phase, then you could simply play a character whenever you what in other phases without using a card (point 2) because the rules do not prohibit play of characters in other phases.

Konrad, you seem to be implying that things not specifically prohibited by the rules are actually not prohibited. However, the fact that there is no statement in the rules allowing play of characters outside of the organization phase indicates that the rules prohibit play outside of the organization phase. This is not a written rule and does not need to be written. This is simply implied by the word "rules" book. These are not laws that PROHIBIT activities and ALLOW all other activities. These are rules that ALLOW certain activities and PROHIBIT all else.

Yes, Short Events (and permanent events) can be played in the Site Phase. And the effect of certain events allow the play of characters. But unless the short event specifically refers to the rules for BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY, then it does not override them. Such Events would need language referring to the rules. Something like "In addition to bringing a character into play during the organization phase, one agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven." Or "One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven. This is not restricted by the normal rules for playing characters."
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:42 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 pm
First of all, it's clear that play of characters is restricted to the organization phase despite the somewhat sloppy wording. If (1) there is no rule restricting play of characters to the organization phase, then you could simply play a character whenever you what in other phases without using a card (point 2) because the rules do not prohibit play of characters in other phases.
No. You cannot simply draw the cards from play deck, even if the procedure is not restricted to any phase. You must play Dark Tryst etc. to do so.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:34 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:42 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 pm
First of all, it's clear that play of characters is restricted to the organization phase despite the somewhat sloppy wording. If (1) there is no rule restricting play of characters to the organization phase, then you could simply play a character whenever you what in other phases without using a card (point 2) because the rules do not prohibit play of characters in other phases.
No. You cannot simply draw the cards from play deck, even if the procedure is not restricted to any phase. You must play Dark Tryst etc. to do so.
That was my point.


Do you think there is a difference between:
1. The existing rule "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities..."
and
2. A hypothetical rule "You may only play characters during your organization phase. You may perform one and only one of the following activities..."

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