Theo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:17 pm
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:33 pm
-Company B moves. Plague of Wights and The Moon is Dead are already in play. A Barrow-wight creature is played. The
Hazard Player decides the declaration/application order and so Barrow-wight now has 4 strikes: 1 strike originally, plus 1 from TMiD, doubled to 4 by PoW.
Where are you deriving this from?
The last rulings on this that I know of all indicate that the attack modification effects don't trigger until the creation of the attack, at which point it is no longer the start of the movement/hazard phase and the resource player gets to choose the order.
CoE #63 wrote:It doesn't matter if the enhancers are already in play or played in the M/h phase - the enhancers don't do anything until their passive effects (enhancing attacks) are triggered by the play of a creature. So in the case above it doesn't matter that you played Moon is Dead 3 turns ago, Plague this turn and then the wight - when the wight is declared all the enhancer effects trigger, and the resource (moving) player chooses the order of resolution of those as per anno 10.
This CoE ruling is inconsistent with the ICE ruling, yet it makes no mention of overruling ICE. So the CoE ruling is a mistake. This is just another example of the CoE Netrep not knowing or reading the ICE rulings.
I had thought similar to this CoE ruling until reading the ICE rulings. The Resource Player still chooses the order of
most everything that gets triggered at once. But before anything is ever played in a particular M/H phase, the Hazard Player will need to speak up and set the ordering for applying TMiD and PoW, if they were already in play, per Annotation 26. Then, the order for applying these two effects is already set whether or not their effects are triggered. The Resource Player cannot change this later. Annotation 26 is definitely contrived. And I'm not quite sure what the reasoning was for it besides your own environment hazards being played against you.
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Theo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:38 pm
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:12 pm
Theo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:25 am
I believe I have said before that *I* don't see Press-gang nor PallandoTSK using passive conditions.
How else could they work?
See above.
...
replacement effects seem like they have to be modifications to the rules themselves: applied immediately and only relevant when the rule they replace would otherwise be enacted.
Except, if these effects were only modifying the rules, then they wouldn't apply to card effects that would discard a character (e.g., A Lie in Your Eyes). Such card effects are not governed by any rules on discarding. Even orcs being discarded by body checks is a card effect, merely described in the rules. If Pallando and Press-gang were to apply to any discarding action, their effects would need to be applied to the potential situation, and that is what the rules on Passive Conditions were designed to cover.
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Theo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:38 pm
CRF wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled.
1) What were you thinking the passive condition is? The potential for a character to be discarded? The character in a state of about-to-be-discarded?
2) Let's say this situation occurs from a body check on the character. The replacement action occurs to be resolved in the next chain of effects. Whoops! By the time it gets to that point, the character has already been discarded. There is no opportunity to "cancel" the discard. There is not even an about-to-be-discarded character state.
I've made no
Whoopsie here. Sometimes a passive condition can merely be a
declaration of something, without that something resolving, and the triggered action can be declared in the same chain of effects as the declared passive condition. Annotation 9 doesn't described every situation. It doesn't even describe cards already in play acting as passive conditions.
There are many cards where the passive condition is simply a
declaration and the triggered action is declared and resolved in the
same chain of effects. Some particular declared actions can be a passive condition for triggering cancellation of that particular action in the same chain of effects (e.g., Govern the Storms, Tookish Blood, pretty much any cancellation really). Declared dice rolls can be passive conditions for triggering a roll modification in the same chain of effects (e.g., Tribal Totem, Times are Evil, First of the Order, White Light Broken, etc.). Or any effect that needs to be applied in response to a declared action (Necklace of Silver and Pearls).
There are many cards that replace some potential action, or cancel that action and perform some other action instead. But most times cards creating such effects also create the potential for the replaced-action to happen (e.g., Thief, Roving Eye, etc.). But just because Pallando and Press-gang don't create the situation where the potentially replaced action would happen doesn't mean that their effects aren't applied to each such situation as it arises.
So yes, the passive condition can simply be a declared action that might result in discarding of a minion. And Pallando and Press-gangs effects would be triggered, declared, and resolved in the same chain of effects in response to the declared action. And the order of their effects would be set by the Resource Player per Annotation 10, unless both effects were already in play at the start of the M/H phase, in which case the Hazard Player would have established the order at the start of the M/H phase. If some minion were to be discarded, the resolved effects of Pallando and Press-gang would negate the discarding and one of their effects will triggered based on the ordering and conditioned upon whether the discarding would have happened.
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The designers created the rules on passive conditions to govern effects that happen later but only indirectly by other actions and decisions by the player, such as the effects of Pallando and Press-gang. Many other cards use passive conditions in a way similar to how I've explained Pallando and Press-gang work (triggered, declared, and resolved in the same chain of effects as the passive condition). Plus, if these effects merely modifyied the rules as you suggest, that would not let Pallando and Press-gang's effects apply to card effects, since they are not governed by the rules, which would clearly not be intended as most discarding actions are card effects (e.g., orc minions discarded by body checks).