Shelob's Brood detainment?

[Bob654]

Relevant section from the rules:
"A Ringwraith player treats any attack keyed to a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold, or Darkhaven against their companies as detainment. This rule also applies to attacks keyed by name to a region or site of the appropriate type."

Would Shelob's Brood played at a Darkhaven surface site (e.g. Dol Guldur) against a Ringwraith player be a detainment attack? It's not keyed "by name" but rather as a condition of the fact that it's an under-deeps surface site.

[Konrad Klar]

Indeed. The rule you have quoted does not say that if attack is effectively keyed to Darkhaven due to reason other than that attack is keyed by name to some site AND the site happens to be a Darkhaven or that it is directly keyed to a Darkhaven (by type of site) is detainment against company of Ringwraith player.

But CRF says:

Rules Erratum: Attacks keyed to Darkhavens are detainment.

If the type of under-deeps surface site would be a Dark-hold, or Shadow-hold then attack from Shelob's Brood against company of Ringwraith player would not become detainment.

[Bob654]

"Rules Erratum: Attacks keyed to Darkhavens are detainment."

If this is the case, shouldn't this rule be included in the new COE Official Game Rules under 3.II Detainment?

[Konrad Klar]

Maybe. Out of my control and responsibility...
I wonder why it is in CRF under Rulings by Term, Darkhaven, but not under Rulings by Term, Detainment Attacks.

[Konrad Klar]

Relevant rule from Lidless Eye is:

Certain attacks detain targets rather than wound them. When a strike from a detainment attack is successful, an untapped target is tapped instead of being wounded. This represents the target being stopped and questioned. The following types of attacks are detainment attacks:

Card text will sometimes state that an attack is a detainment attack.
Any Nazgûl attack against a minion company is a detainment attack.
Any attack keyed to Dark-domains, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold is a detainment attack.
Any Orc, Troll, Undead, or Man attack keyed to Shadow-land is a detainment attack.

The parameters apply if the attack is keyed to the region symbol or site symbol (by type) or if keyed to a region or site by name which happens to be of appropriate type (i.e., has the appropriate symbol).

Underline mine.

Underlined part says the same as
"A Ringwraith player treats any attack keyed to a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold, or Darkhaven against their companies as detainment. This rule also applies to attacks keyed by name to a region or site of the appropriate type."
says, except that MELE is bulleted and COE Official Game Rules under 3.II Detainment explicitly mentions a Ringwraith player.

It does not cover the attacks that are effectively keyed to a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold, or Darkhaven for other reason than that they are explicitly keyed to a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold, or Darkhaven, or attacks are keyed by name to such site/region AND the site region happens to be a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold, or Darkhaven.

[Bob654]

Thanks Konrad. Half the fun of this game is trying to figure out how the rules actually work haha.

Tangentially related question:

A Ringwraith player can only ever score kill MP from creatures marked with an * correct? Regardless of whether or not a non-* attack is detainment or not, they won't score the MP. However, orc and troll characters can take a trophy for defeating any attack - detainment/non-detainment, as well as */non-*.

My understanding of that is correct, right?

[Konrad Klar]

Thanks for drawing attention to this detail.
Until yesterday I would say that the attack of Shelob's Brood (or Scorba) keyed to Mount Gundabad is detainment against companies of minion player.

A Ringwraith player can only ever score kill MP from creatures marked with an * correct? Regardless of whether or not a non-* attack is detainment or not, they won't score the MP. However, orc and troll characters can take a trophy for defeating any attack - detainment/non-detainment, as well as */non-*.

My understanding of that is correct, right?

Detainment attack from creature is never defeated.
However creature card without * next to its marshalling points may be used as trophy.

[Bob654]

"Detainment attack from creature is never defeated."

The COE rules document seems to disagree with you.

From 3.II Detainment:
"A detainment creature attack is not worth marshalling points to a player that defeats it."

And also from 3.IV Trophies:
"Creatures being used as trophies provide the same number of kill marshalling points that they would to the defeating player if the creature was not being used as a trophy (i.e. the creature’s normal value for non-detainment attacks, and zero marshalling points for detainment attacks)."

Based on the COE rules, it would seem to suggest that detainment attacks are defeated and then can be used as trophies (which is slightly different than my vague memory of how that worked from years ago, which is why I was looking for confirmation)

[Konrad Klar]

The COE rules document seems to disagree with you.

Yes. And again: it is out of my control and responsibility.

[...]
If even one of the strikes was canceled or ineffectual, the attack is not defeated. If the attack is canceled, the attack is not defeated. A canceled attack has no effect on the defending company (though the company is considered in its history to have faced it). A detainment attack from a creature is never defeated and the creature’s card is always discarded after the attack is resolved.

Underline mine.

Detainment attacks not from creature may be defeated.

[Konrad Klar]

Putting aside a validity of the statement:

Creatures being used as trophies provide the same number of kill marshalling points that they would to the defeating player if the creature was not being used as a trophy (i.e. the creature’s normal value for non-detainment attacks, and zero marshalling points for detainment attacks).

at the moment.

I wonder what is a sense of using "zero marshalling points" card as a trophy.
Only practical impact on game I see is: something to eat (or drink) for Rats! (or Thief, Brigands, Drowning Seas). Because trophies count as minor items.

[Konrad Klar]

Ah, one more thing: trophies are treated as minor items with zero CP. Nice source of corruption when Balance of Things is in play.

EDIT: "value" -> "source of corruption"

[Bob654]

I wonder what is a sense of using "zero marshalling points" card as a trophy.

Well the COE rules have an answer for that as well (from the section on Trophies):
"A character’s attributes are modified based on the total number of marshalling points printed on its trophy cards (regardless of how many points the cards are worth to the player)"

[Konrad Klar]

Right.
After all defeated creatures without * that attack normally (not as detainment) also give "zero marshalling points" for minion player.

[Vastor Peredhil]

All attacks at Dol Guldur and Carn Dum Darkhavens are canceled, so why is this an issue?

[Konrad Klar]

All attacks at Dol Guldur and Carn Dum Darkhavens are canceled, so why is this an issue?

Site Path From Minas Morgul:

Site Path From Carn Dûm:

Special: Any gold ring stored at this site is automatically tested (modify the roll by -2). Any attack against a minion company at this site is canceled.

Any attack against a minion company at this site is canceled.
Attack keyed to a site may be faced be company moving to the site.
Additionality the issue covers also attacks keyed to a Dark-domain, Dark-hold, Shadow-hold (if they are not keyed explicitly or by name to the region/site with this symbol).