Super Cool Idea for Legolas

[Jambo]

Ok, we'll have to find another way than putting the text on Legolas. If Legolas leaves play, then there's no longer anything to circumvent the standard trophy rules in the LE rules and we run into problems.

So, as to a solution - simple.

First, leave Legolas and Gimli as they are.

Second, include this:

Tempering Friendship/Old Friendship/Kindling of the Spirit V:
Hero permanent-event
If Legolas and Gimli are in the same company, each of them may take defeated creatures or defeated characters in company vs company combat as trophies. Trophies give double the normal bonuses to Legolas and Gimli. If either Legolas or Gimli has less trophy marshalling points than the other, that character must be assigned a strike from any hazard creature which does not choose defending characters, and must take the next trophy wherever possible. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

The advantage of this is it will afford FWs the opportunity to use Legolas and Gimli is this way by using it with the original Legolas.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Is an option. I would go with New Friendship then
And as a FW fan I certainly applaude it. But, it makes the Legolas V less interesting of course, so we'd either have to think up something for him, or drop him altogether.
If you open the road for playing them with badbeards, you do open also a road for magic. Taking trophies isn't dificult if you have Hounds of Sauron at your disposal...

[Jambo]

Legolas V is still fine. He's still Warrior/Ranger/Scout, and there's still the bonus to Dwarf factions and the exemption from Unhappy Blows.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Fine maybe but pale. Scout/ranger is nice, but is it worth virtualizing him for this?
Unhappy Blows rules out the whole idea of not playing with Legolas V then, so fw can shake it. One less reason for New Friendship V.

[Jambo]

Definitely. If they're both Warrior/Diplomats then it doesn't bode well for them scouring Middle-earth as a partnership. They'll simply succumb to the first River or Enchanted Stream that crosses their path. Legolas has also been given a +1 prowess versus orcs in addition to the other boosts.

The Unhappy Blows feature could be moved to New Friendship though, thereby aiding FW attempts to reciprocate such a deck. Despite the ever-looming presence of Unhappy Blows for normal Elf-Dwarf companies, I've used a Fallen Gandalf deck with both characters with good success.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

yeah but then you see the main purpose of virtualizing Legolas in combining him with Gimli, not as a new strategy. It might be thematic fun, and he gets upped a bit, but that's it. Besides, we're inventing more diplomat uses as well, and if they get both more powerful you can focus on other guys to be the ranger/scout. I guess all I'm saying is that if you take the juice out of this new proposal, you need to put some more juice back in as well, imho.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

I don't think we should double the bonus...
because this should not give Legolas some VERY STRONG ablity....
this should just make it a little bit better... and add some flavour in my oppinion....
and the doubling effekt would scare your opponent like also said to play creatures in the first place... or to hold them back only because legolas has become imensly strong by killing just 2 hazards .... so after killing the first two.... all other hazards in opponents hand become much more weaker!!!!
Do we want that???


I think we should manage this by virtualizing legolas... or even gimli,
but not by making another card... because this kind of effect is not that strong that I would think inclueding this card instead of a CRAM....

And the new legolas looks now as he is... LIKE the old one... just with some new skilll...
to make him worth virtualizing I would say we make something special with him!!!

[Jambo]

I think we should manage this by virtualizing legolas... or even gimli, but not by making another card... because this kind of effect is not that strong that I would think inclueding this card instead of a CRAM....

And the new legolas looks now as he is... LIKE the old one... just with some new skilll...
to make him worth virtualizing I would say we make something special with him!!!

That's all fine and well in theory, but if you enable trophies on a character card, and then the character leaves play for whatever reason, the whole 'trophies for heroes' idea comes to a resounding halt and all you're left with is a big rules mess.

What exactly do you and/or Thorsten have in mind for Legolas (and Gimli?) to make them 'special'?

[Frodo]

Jambo, why do you see a rules mess if Lego and Gimli split up? The creatures attached to them have been played as trophies, so as trophies they remain. Lego's text merely gives them the ability to *take* trophies like minions and to double them.

I'd rather leave this on Legolas too. Otherwise, it's more cards to put into the deck (New Friendshipx2).

I think Lego's ranger ability is important. For those who haven't played the deck, you can't start with any other large hero because of influence worries (which sometimes you can ignore, but not in a deck like this when all your special abilities come from the two of them being together). This means Lego and Gimli is all you get! Plus smaller characters under them. It's very easy to tap your small ranger. Harder to tap the big ranger (Lego).

If other people feel like Boder that the bonus is too much, we can limit it. But I'd offer one last suggestion: saying "consider the creature MP doubled for trophy purposes." This is much different than doubling the bonuses themselves; it means a 1 mp creature on Gimli will give him +1 DI and +1 prow, rather than +2 DI. It means 2 mp in Gimli (the max, since it's doubled to 4) will give him +2 DI and +2 prow, and he will never be able to go above that.

The only problem with the above is the same as for minions: I think it's kind of weak! Just my feelings.

Frodo
Frodo

[Jambo]

My concern was that without a card on the table continually granting hero characters the ability to use defeated creatures as trophies, there would be nothing to overrule the LE rules, which are explicit about it being minion companies that can take and use trophies.

If that concern is unfounded, then great, there's no need for another card.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

It might cause a rules problem....
but only for the RULES themselves...

because ingame the situation is clear and selfexpanatory... and that is the most important thing...
if there is a rules concern about this... then we just have to inclued some kind of rules tweek in the V-card sheet...
like it was also done for Morgul horse before...

of cause some will scream... don't mess with the rules....
but why shouldn't we mess with the rules (And we have alrady messed with them...), if the result is easy to understand.... and is mostly explained on the card itself.... and there is just needed a little tweak to make it working with the rules FOR REAL...



I don't have anything special for legolas or gimli in mind... but it should be wort making a new version of them...
and why not do it properly... and make something realy cool...
I think the people will love this kind of legolas and gimli interaction... because it is VERY thematic!!!!! And thematic is something very important for the game....
thats also a reason for my version of (helm of her screcy)

[Thorsten the Traveller]

well I'm no rules master by far, but I suppose Jambo has a point. Even worse if there is a difference between taking/carrying trophies and 'using' them.

It would be nice if the trophy taking simulates a continuous rivalry between the two. To place a cap on it at 2 mps worth is therefore a pitty. I'd like to see no max, but it might be very good, and doubling ups them quickly. Hence my proposition to diversify in the effect. Gaining extra DI isn't as powerfull as gaining extra prowess, if you can use it only vs. the other guy. Or other option would be to gain DI only vs. warriors (biggest stock there is anyway). This all would complicate the trophy rule even more however and would definitely call for a New Friendship card.

Of course the ranger route is nice. But there are other options. If you don't like the mind, then just give them 'minus two influence to control if in company with eachother,' you can have them both under your wiz.

Haven't really thought about more Legolas abilities, but maybe we can work something out with him using a bow? Or maybe we can give him ability to tap to support at +3 in stead of +1, simulating a bow-using effect. Kind of a permanent Hail of Darts for Legolas? Or he can fetch Wielded Twice, which is a good card actually but sadly underplayed (because items are mostly used for MP's and not for abilities). Just some quick thoughts.

[Balin]

I think we must make it simple: virtual Legolas card as it is now, adding trophies ability (without doubling, IMHO). And a clarification in virtual games rules to let players know that trophies bonuses still apply if Legolas leaves play.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Is option too, but all in all we should be careful to make list of rules and clarifications too long, for obvious reasons. So if more elegant solution can be found it is always preferable I'd say.

[Jambo]

My concern over the rules may be completely unfounded. The LE rules really only mention that minion companies can take defeated creatures as trophies. If the text on Legolas just bends that rule, and as long as once a trophy always a trophy so to speak, then if Legolas is removed from play, we should be fine as Frodo suggests.

I share other people's thoughts in that doubling the bonus might just end up with people refraining from playing creatures against Legolas and Gimli's company. Making it too good won't necessarily mean better benefits are to be had. Since we are bending the trophy rules already, it might be nice if we could include defeated minion characters as well! This way, Legolas and Gimli will still have a way to gather trophies should their opponent stop playing creatures.