Flipping to Fallen Wizard

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Post by domse » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:53 pm

As already mentioned to Joe in Barcelona I would like to make a suggestion on the whole "flipping to fallenwizard"-thing.
I see no evidence - neither thematic nor in game machanics - to eliminate the avatar until the next turn.

I think its much easier to handle if the only rules on that are:
1) Only flipping once
2) Flipped Avatar gives -5MP

If you think this makes the whole thing too strong I'd rather recommend making the flipback-conditions harder to fulfill. And anyway - poeple taking risks with their avatars is a cool thing in an ARDA game and should be supported by the rules!

For all those who have not been there and wonder why I put so much emphasis on this: I failed a corruption check on the last turn and fulfilled my flipback condition on the same turn and still was screwed... it was a very disappointing experience :cry:

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Post by Frodo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:28 am

Hee hee... I can't believe you are still scarred by that!

It was great playing that game!

Other opinions? One side effect of embracing Domse's rule is that the wizard would then have to keep his state of being untapped or wounded, right? For example, if the wizard was killed, then he turns into a wounded FW--or no? Previously, even though you lost your wizard for the rest of your current turn and he came back the next, he was at least untapped and unwounded!


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Post by Frodo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:48 am

Eric, I am curious if we should incorporate the only other way a wizard can leave the table into the FW flipping rules... Sacrifice of Form.

I played it so that if you played Sacrifice, your avatar went away and came back next turn flipped to the fallen side, but that there was no -5MP. But I guess there's nothing wrong with the -5 penalty, now that I think about it.

If we change the global FW rule so that the wizard doesn't actually disappear for the turn, but only gets flipped, wouldn't we need something different for Sac?

Also, isn't it weird that if you get KILLED, you still don't go away for a turn? maybe we incorporoate Domse's rule only a little, and say:

"If your avatar is corrupted, immediately replace him with his Fallen manifestation (untapped); if he is killed or discarded by Sacrifice of Form, immediately remove him from play; next turn he may join any of your companies in his Fallen state (untapped)."


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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:40 am

First of all, waiting a turn is very thematic, since Gandalf did not meet up with the leftover fellowship until about 3 weeks later. Meanwhile he was floating in time space continuum. A fallen wizard might be off wandering until he composes himself again, like normally characters failing a check are discarded (going home), but may come back.

Second, it’s quite a useful thing in game mechanics. Indeed you come back renewed (unwounded), so for that reason alone I would keep it that way. Also you can’t reward a wizard taking risks by letting him still do stuff in the site phase if he fails. Of course that could be phrased differently, like “may do nothing this turn.’ And I still feel the allies he controls must be discarded if he goes fallen, which is more intuitively accepted if you keep him off to the side and not just with the company (though indeed this is minor).

But even so, if the wizzz is absent, that opens some possibilities for the opponent, so it might actually be a funny thing to keep around. Opponent can go for the influencing of a character that would be under control of the wizard normally. Wizard can’t play spells anymore to protect influence attempts or attacks. There might be other possibilities to take advantage of such a ‘window of opportunity,’ though none really big come to my mind just now (riddling is always better if his sage is gone, you break up fellowships, etc.)

Now, I really don’t understand the commotion. As the rules currently say; you flip him first, then place off to the side. I don’t believe any of the fallen avatars state that it must be he himself who fulfills the condition, so when you play the whatever he needs in the same turn, afaik, even though he is not with the company, you can still flip him back. Ok it says ‘off to the side’, because you cannot use or target him, but I would say that flipping him is neither of that. Otherwise I will make that a clarification.

Nb, the rules do also state currently that a fallen wizard is -5, right? And also that it may only be done once. So I don’t understand why this proposal would be anything new?

I think the play of Sacrifice as intentionally flipping your wizard is fine, and you don’t need to alter the rules for it, though of course it must be made clear that this is what SoF does…yet another clarification on the list. Personally I just didn’t include it in the deck, saw no reason for it, but come to think of it, it’s actually an interesting strategy to actively look/trade in advance for the resources you might need to flip back, and then sacrifice yourself… 8)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Post by Frodo » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:41 am

Good point, Eric, that you can still fulfill the FW's criteria even if he is off to the side, and thus avoid the -5 MP penalty on a final turn, even though you won't be able to place the Wizard back in play again (there should be a clarification about this in the rulebook though).

Okay, here's what my rules summary card looks like then:

* Factions/characters influenced away join influencer’s control; characters may transfer one item, discard allies.
* Storable cards may be stored during the site phase.
* Once per game your wizard may be flipped to his FW side if corrupted, eliminated, or discarded: remove him from play until your next turn then join him with any of your companies. -5 MP unless you flip back.
* Creature perm-events affect sites outside spheres.
* All Under-deeps sites contain a Hoard.
* Hoard items are a separate MP source at the Council.


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