Deeper Shadow

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Deeper Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:04 pm

Deeper Shadow wrote:Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the movement/hazard phase on a moving shadow-magic-using character. In character's site path, change a Ruins and Lairs [-me_rl-] to a Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] or one Wilderness [-me_wi-] to a Shadow-land [-me_sl-] . Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum). Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.
Bold original.
CRF, Errata (Cards), Deeper Shadow wrote:Card Erratum: This is a short-event, not a long-event. Deeper Shadow can cancel
hazards by reducing the hazard limit to the point where the hazard resolving is no
longer playable. If this is done to an on-guard card, the card is returned to the player's
hand. The character must be moving to the site to change the site type. This works
even though the site is not technically part of the site path.
Text of the card does not specify any duration of its effects. I think that it is a mistake.

I propose the following erratum:

"Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the movement/hazard phase on a moving shadow-magic-using character. Change the character company's new site that is Ruins and Lairs [-me_rl-] to a Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] until end of turn or one Wilderness [-me_wi-] in character company's site path to a Shadow-land [-me_sl-] until end of turn. Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum). Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3."
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CDavis7M
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:38 pm

I agree with the changes. I think this is the original intent of the card and implied by virtue of it being a Short Event and the fact that it is played during some companies M/H phase.

But I also think there is enough room for differing interpretations that this should be clarified. I am in favor of the errata for this reason.

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Kjeld » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Question: This would mean that the change persists for other M/H phases as well, right? So if company A plays Deeper Shadow to change region X to a [-me_sl-], then if company B subsequently travels through region X on the same turn (different M/H phase, obviously), region X will still be a [-me_sl-] ?

It seems like this should be the case.

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Kjeld wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 pm
Question: This would mean that the change persists for other M/H phases as well, right? So if company A plays Deeper Shadow to change region X to a [-me_sl-], then if company B subsequently travels through region X on the same turn (different M/H phase, obviously), region X will still be a [-me_sl-] ?

It seems like this should be the case.
Right, if target region symbol is tied to named region. In starter movement only first and last region symbols are tied to named regions.
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Theo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:55 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:27 pm
In starter movement only first and last region symbols are tied to named regions.
I would argue this; the region symbols in starter movement site path are derived from the site's site path field, and the named regions that may be keyed to are independently derived from the origin and destination site's region fields.
MELE Site Path wrote:each region in the sequence is only indicated by its type, not by its name.
Further, region movement derives the keyable symbols from the region cards. Once removed from play, there is no way to determine whether a region card is the same or different for different uses. (In fact, during the same turn, moving companies MUST use different cards = different symbol instances).
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:31 pm

Example:
A 1st hero company moves from Rivendell to Cameth Brin ( [-me_bh-] ) using Starter Movement [-me_wi-]. Deeper Shadow is played to change the [-me_wi-] on the site's sitepath to a [-me_sl-] .

A 2nd hero company moves from Cameth Brin to Rivendell using region movement.

I would expect that Deeper Shadow does not affect Rhudaur [-me_wi-] for the 2nd company.

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:23 am

CRF, Rulings by Term, Site Path wrote:Events can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:31 pm
would expect that Deeper Shadow does not affect Rhudaur [-me_wi-] for the 2nd company.
2nd company will move through [-me_sl-].

@Theo

What about:
CRF, Errata (Cards), Girdle of Radagast wrote:Does not affect the regions in starter movement, except for the starting and ending
regions.
?
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CDavis7M
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:57 pm

I was not aware of that CRF and I wonder how many other cards are intended to work similarly.

Disregarding the special CRF for Girdle of Radagast, my understanding was that changing a symbol ( [-me_fd-] [-me_bl-] [-me_wi-] [-me_sl-] [-me_dd-] [-me_sh-] [-me_rl-] [-me_bh-] [-me_dh-] :| :cry: :P :!: ) only changes 1 exact symbol.

So, when the site is revealed and the site path is shown (using the site for starter movement OR the region card or map for region movement), Deeper Shadow could only affect either the site path (region movement) OR the site's site path (in both starter movement and region movement). Of course, the site's site path and the site path are the same in starter movement.

In the example above, my understanding is that you could only change the symbol A or B in the image below, not both.

Besides a special CRF for Radagast's Girdle (errata to that specific card), I don't think changing the region type will change the site's site path as well (even though you could reasonably determine which symbols correspond to which regions).

Image
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Kjeld » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:42 pm

In the example above, my understanding is that you could only change the symbol A or B in the image below, not both.
Just my two cents as a rules-novice, but that seems completely unintuitive and needlessly complicated. Why distinguish between the "site's site path" and the "site path", or between the "symbol" for the region and the actual region type? Clearly Cameth Brin and Rivendell are both in Rhudaur, which is normally a [-me_wi-]. Where else would the company possibly be moving through? And to what else, other than Rhudaur's region type, would that [-me_wi-] on Cameth Brin possibly refer to?

To differentiate between these symbols just creates more moving parts for players to keep track of in a game that's bursting at the seems with moving parts. It's rulings like this which I think make this game unfriendly to new and casual players (i.e. those players who want to enjoy the fun of Middle Earth more than they want to manipulate the game mechanics).

Warning: Short rant to follow. Personally, I think that Starter Movement should be completely revised to eliminate these nameless, disembodied region symbols. To be most intuitive, every region symbol in any site path should always be associated with a specific named region, and should be considered synonymous with that region and it's type, at least for the duration of the current M/H phase. I know this is heresy and would change the way a lot of cards are played, but using completely different mechanics for Starter Movement and Region Movement was a needlessly complicated differentiation to begin with, and could be resolved by treating Starter Movement as a special case of Region Movement that only works to/from a [-me_ha-] / [-me_dha-] and overrides the normal restrictions on number of regions moved. If this were so, then "the site's site path and the site bath are the same" in ALL types of movement, and the differentiation becomes a moot point, saving everyone a lot of headache and allowing us to get back to finding out whether Nain is going to get attacked by a Huorn or not!

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:49 pm

@rant

this how it is handled in DC rules, starter movement includes all regions using DC rules

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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:40 pm

I think we can agree which way is better and easier. And we can be thankful for an alternative game mode using DC rules, which are not beholden to the original flaws.

But is my understanding incorrect?

I just see this as one of the advantages of using Region movement compared to Starter movement, which has its own advantages.

In Starter movement, Withered Lands could change Cameth Brin's site path from [-me_wi-] into [-me_wi-] [-me_wi-]. And then the hazard played could play all sorts of [-me_wi-] [-me_wi-] creatures, and after all that they could tap the site using Long Winter based on the [-me_wi-] [-me_wi-] in the site path. This is not possible with Region movement. You either get the creatures or you tap the site. While this is a disadvantage of starter movement, at least you can sometimes travel more than 4 regions.

Also, starter movement can avoid certain hazards. Like when traveling to Buhr Widu in Southern Rhovanian while Spider of the Morlat is creating attacks in Mirkwood. Not only do you get to travel 5 regions, but you avoid all the spider attacks.

As for beginners learning the game, I am in favor of allowing "double movement." Which is basically unlimited use of "Bridge" without needing to play it (when you move to a haven you can move again).

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Theo
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Theo » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:56 am

Consider e.g. Dunnish Clan-Hold starter movement. The middle wilderness could have been inspired by either Hollin or Cardolan. The movement is deliberately ambiguous about which paths the company might be taking.

Thematically, I can see starter movement allowing a company to avoid the dangers normally associated to the wilds of intermediate regions because they are using established safest routes as directed by the knowledgeable Haven dwellers (the regions on the ends are still being moved through because enemies in the region are on the lookout for those moving to the specific sites). Region movement I equate to backcountry bushwacking, and that's when you can accidentally stumble into regional dangers and why there are stricter limits on total number of regions moved. But that's just my thematic justification.

---
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:23 am
What about:

CRF, Errata (Cards), Girdle of Radagast wrote:
Does not affect the regions in starter movement, except for the starting and ending
regions.

?
Sure, why wouldn't the regions be affected? But the regions do not contribute to the site's site path---they are defined by the site card's site path field---and so changes to named regions do not affect a starter-moving company's site path.
MELE wrote:The region types that a company moves through during a given turn are determined by the following criteria:
• If a company did not play a new site card, it did not move through any regions – so, no creature may be played based solely on region conditions.
• If the company was at a Darkhaven site and has played a new non-Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the new site card’s site path.
• If the company was at a Darkhaven site and has played a new Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the new Darkhaven site card’s “Site Path from” the old Darkhaven site (i.e., the site path from the site of origin Darkhaven).
• If the company was at a non-Darkhaven site and has played a new Darkhaven site card (but no region cards), the region types are indicated by the site of origin’s site path (i.e., the site path on the site that the company left).
• Standard Rules: If the company used region movement, the region types of the site path are indicated by the region cards or an appropriate map (i.e., each region card has a region type).
CRF wrote:The site's site path is always the site path given on the site card, regardless of how the company got to that site.
Perhaps the Girdle CRF was intended to affect the first and last region symbols in a site's site path, but as written I cannot agree that it currently does so.
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by dirhaval » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 pm

I was thinking about Master of Wood, Water, and Hill and Dragon's Desolation while reading this thread.

Digest #118 has it that the change for MWWH lasts all turn affecting all companies.
Digest #62 allows MWWH to be played like Marvels Told; tapping Sage can be in another company.

About memory, Orc-Warband has a memory clause, right?

About the example given in this thread of A or B with region symbols. If region cards are being used, then
the site's site path is ignored for purposes of determining companies site path--use the region cards.
That is site's site path in way would not be present if starter movement never existed or just
to be used by cards like Dragon Desolation.

Now for Dragon's Desolation. It gets tricky. The question is: Can Deeper Shadow/MWWH target
the site's site path only? That is can Dragon's Desolation be used to play a dragon on a company
moving from hero Dale to hero The Lonely Mountain even if DS/MWWH changes Northern Rhovanion to a Shadow-land?
Or play the dragon if a Wilderness on The Lonely Mountain's site card is changed for this same movement?

In my opinion for strictness, the resource player has the option to either affect the site's site path or a region card and not both, for region movement.
That is change region symbol on The Lonely Mountain to avoid Dragon Desolation, but stay vulnerable to Wilderness creatures.
Such a view avoids the Dunnish Clan-hold ambigous regions. However, if a ruling is made to specify region names for ALL
sites' site paths, then we can join the affect card/regions as one.
But also consider the cost: tap a Sage, make a corruption check to avoid a difficult to play Dragon. Is the cost
acceptable to avoid the "fun" part of the game? Why not just use Concealment? So maybe DS/MWWH has a lesser effect
since it affects hazards other than creatures.


OTHER
Starter movement was a means to allow understanding of the game and thus keep new players from discouragement.
Yes, you do avoid danger and move move than four regions, just look at Cirith Gorgor. Chance of Being Lost
is avoided too.

edit" changed Lake-town to Lonely Mountain (possible to change borderholds to Ruins, vile fumes)

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Theo
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Theo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:37 pm

I believe this is likely the origin of the Deeper Shadow CRF clarification "The character must be moving to the site to change the site type. This works even though the site is not technically part of the site path. The character must also be moving to lower the hazard limit."
Rules Digest 69 wrote:First, I misunderstood your statement. I thought you meant that changing something in the site path does not affect cards in play, such as regions and sites. Where identifiable, such things do change in response to the changes in the site path. Obviously, the site counts as part of the site path for the purposes of Deeper Shadow. Otherwise the card is nonsensical. In this case it should be interpreted as "the site the company is moving to." And changes made to that site type will affect the site card in play.

As for the site path, technically it does not contain the site.
These seem like crazy rulings to me, but such as they are! That second underlined portion really should have made it into the CRF to save later headaches.

The implication of the first underlined portion is that starter moving to Dunnish Clan-hold, depending on which wilderness in the site path someone chooses they can also effect Rhudaur and Dunland regions for other companies, but not Hollin or Cardolan. Moving to Enedwaith, one can effect Rhudaur, Enedwaith, OR Cardolan. Dare I say, this is madness.
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Re: Deeper Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:30 am

Where identifiable, such things do change in response to the changes in the site path.
I do not know why "in response". I would say "in result".
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