Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

The place to ask all rules questions related to MECCG.
Post Reply
User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:32 pm

I'm sure there are many more scenarios which would fall under this umbrella topic, but here are two specific ones:

First Scenario
I play Echoes of the Song on my opponent and he chooses to discard Thrall of the Voice which is played with Legolas.
Legolas now reverts back to his original 6 mind attribute. The White Hand rules book states:

"... you may only use a character if his mind attribute is 5 or less."

So what does "use" mean? What now happens to Legolas? Can he move? Can he face strikes? Does he still count for Marshaling Points?

Second Scenario
I play Echoes of the Song on my opponent and he chooses to discard a Hidden Haven which was played on a site which also has Guarded Haven played on the same site. So the associated site ceases to be a haven, but it is still a protected site and still provides 1 MP from the Guarded Haven card, correct?

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 pm

Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
Hidden Haven can't satisfy Echoes.

As for the first question, it's anybody's guess what "use" means in that rule. My own personal philosophy is here.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:29 am

Apologies as I forgot to reply to your post.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 pm
Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
Hidden Haven can't satisfy Echoes.
Both players totally missed that during the game! Good catch! :oops:

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 pm
As for the first question, it's anybody's guess what "use" means in that rule. My own personal philosophy is here.
Thanks for sharing your philosophy. So you believe the character becomes a "Lump" as you say. Do you believe they still count for character Marshaling Points?

To add to the discussion, does anyone have opinions on what USE means with this card: Cast From the Order
CAST FROM THE ORDER ‐ Permanent‐event (R)
Playable on a Fallen‐wizard. Make a roll and add the Fallen‐wizardʹs stage points. If the result is less than 16, discard this card. Otherwise, place this card with the Fallen‐wizard. The Fallen‐wizardʹs player must use minion sites for Border‐holds [ [-me_bh-] ], Free‐holds[ [-me_fh-] ], and hero Havens. Also, the Fallen‐wizardʹs company is overt.
Does use here mean:

- Must retrieve minion sites from one's location deck instead of hero sites?
OR
- May not travel to a hero site already in play?
OR
- May not tap a hero site to play a resource?
OR
- May not play any resources or cards whatsoever at a hero site?

If I have already revealed and declared movement to a hero Border-hold and during the company's M/H phase Cast From the Order is successfully played, what happens?
Do we treat this scenario like a successful River affect? The company arrives at the hero site but can do nothing? Or does use have a more limited meaning?

If a company is already present at a hero Border-hold when Cast From the Order is played, what are their options?

Thoughts welcome.

Yegor
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:39 am
Location: Dnipro, Ukraine

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Yegor » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:01 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:29 am
- Must retrieve minion sites from one's location deck instead of hero sites?
My guess is that from now on corresponding sites must be played. But that should not affect sites already in play.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2060
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:03 am

Cast From the Order says about necessity of using minion sites for given site types.
This is not a restriction, this is a warrant.

I see a two ways of fulfilling the warrant.

- Using a minion site card when a site under control of affected player happen to be of given type.
- Using a minion site card if a site card under control of affected player would be otherwise of given type.

In first case, after playing Rebuild the Town on [-me_rl-] hero site card, the [-me_rl-] hero site card would be replaced with [-me_rl-] minion site card and Rebuild the Town would illegally target a minion site card.

Second way means replacing all site cards of given types under control of affected player with cards of minion version. The case seems to be less problematic, especially the there is no minion version of sites of type "hero haven". There is a minion version of site cards of type "hero haven".
the Jabberwock wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:29 am
If I have already revealed and declared movement to a hero Border-hold and during the company's M/H phase Cast From the Order is successfully played, what happens?
Do we treat this scenario like a successful River affect? The company arrives at the hero site but can do nothing? Or does use have a more limited meaning?

If a company is already present at a hero Border-hold when Cast From the Order is played, what are their options?
The replacing happens immediately, once Cast From the Order is in play.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:29 am
Thanks for sharing your philosophy. So you believe the character becomes a "Lump" as you say. Do you believe they still count for character Marshaling Points?
I believe so. Likewise, they're still in play even though they can't be used.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Theo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:18 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:03 am
Cast From the Order says about necessity of using minion sites for given site types.
This is not a restriction, this is a warrant.

I see a two ways of fulfilling the warrant.

- Using a minion site card when a site under control of affected player happen to be of given type.
- Using a minion site card if a site card under control of affected player would be otherwise of given type.

In first case, after playing Rebuild the Town on [-me_rl-] hero site card, the [-me_rl-] hero site card would be replaced with [-me_rl-] minion site card and Rebuild the Town would illegally target a minion site card.

Second way means replacing all site cards of given types under control of affected player with cards of minion version. The case seems to be less problematic, especially the there is no minion version of sites of type "hero haven". There is a minion version of site cards of type "hero haven".
To make sure I'm following, is Rebuild the Town not lost for the second case because a site that has merely been altered to be a Border-hold is not affected by Cast From the Order under the second way? I see how that would avoid the paradox of being at a Ruins and Lairs, playing Rebuild the Town, which would then require replacement to a minion version, which would then not be affected by Rebuild the Town, which would then mean it is still a Ruins and Lairs, which means it does not need to be replaced, which means it can still be affected by Rebuild the Town, ad infinitum.

What happens with something like Refuge, which has no minion version? How is the warrant fulfilled then?

My main takeaway is that "must use minion sites" here is interpreted as "must replace non-minion sites with a same-named minion site". The replacement mechanism not being explicitly stated seems a little weird to me, but at least it would be more streamlined in how to handle various "use" situations for sites already in play vs. selecting future sites than delving into how to NOT "use" non-minion sites.

However, it returns to the old question: if the effected Fallen Wizard is doing the replacement, what happens if they don't have the replacement needed? Auto-forfeit?
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:17 pm

Okay, after doing some more digging and discussing with another player, the following came to light:

CoE NetRep Rulings Digest #19
Or if you have a company moving to a Refuge, and you are Cast From the Order?
*** If you are Cast from the Order from a previous turn, you may not play Refuge. If you have Cast from the Order played on you while you're moving to Refuge, as per the CRF under "sites", your opponent must provide the minion version of the site if you don't have it available. Neither of you can do that so you get to the normal Refuge.
CoE NetRep Rulings Digest #54
How can Poison of His Voice do anything to Heart Grown Cold? HGC is
permanent, while PoHV only last till the end of the turn. And since
HGC is played during the M/H-phase, sites have already been played and
are not affected by HGC, right? I assume HGC only affect the
_playing_ of a site, and does not change sites already in play? Or
does it?
*** Heart Grown Cold will cause all affected sites in play to be
swapped out with a site of the appropriate alignment. If the resource
player doesn't own an appropriate version of that site, the hazard
player must provide it. Subsequent sites played must adhere to Heart
Grown Cold's requirements unless, of course, it is removed from play.
Heart Grown Cold functions the same as Cast From the Order, so this ruling would apply to handling Cast from the Order as well.

So this NetRep decided that "must use minion sites" means "replace all existing hero sites in play with minion sites." Personally, I think this is stretching the interpretation of the word USE a bit, but okay, I respect the ruling.
However, what happens when Cast from the Order leaves play? Do the minion sites automatically switch back to hero versions? If not, why not? If a mandate to use a certain card means replacing the site, then shouldn't the mandate being removed mean reverting the site?

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:16 am

MEWH Rules wrote:A fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not Ruins & Lairs.
Unless a card specifically alters this rule, it remains in force.

As for the "use" of a site card, the rule seems to be saying that this includes all of a company's interactions with a site card.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:22 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:16 am
MEWH Rules wrote:A fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not Ruins & Lairs.
Unless a card specifically alters this rule, it remains in force.

As for the "use" of a site card, the rule seems to be saying that this includes all of a company's interactions with a site card.
Okay, so let's say Cast From the Order comes into play while a tapped Wellinghall is in play. The minion version of Wellinghall now replaces the hero version. Does the hero Wellinghall now go to the discard pile since it was tapped? Once Cast From the Order leaves play, does the hero version of Wellinghall now come back into play from the discard pile? If not, what happens?

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:52 am

The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.
An exchange is just that -- you put the one site wherever the other one was and in the same position. A tapped hero Wellinghall would return to wherever minion Wellinghall was.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”