Balrog Sideboard Character Play

[Sauron]

I saw the CoE talking about this on their Agenda and some input from Sauron.

The issue - the Balrog can play 3 mind or less, non-unique chars from the Sideboard/Discard Pile via normal play or We Have Come to Kill.

1) The Balrog is limited to two 3 MP Chars and a few 2 MP chars.
2) 6 Characters from the sideboard = 6 Sideboard Card Slots
3) On average minions get less points for Factions / Items than hero counter parts, this is generally made up for by more Character points
4) A non-balrog minion player has the option of using a larger pool of 3 MP chars (Grimborgoth, Baduila, Mouth, Lts x3, Elerina, etc)
5) I may have more to say after others post.

[Bandobras Took]

I'll say that that's why I object to adopting the 2-mind limit.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Unless for Balrog-Balrog match-ups, the pool of characters available to Balrog players is ok, and the Balrog specific characters are more than above average.
Balrog has the largest DI/GI total to use, as a consequence.
And you don't design rules with same avatar match-ups in mind, as they'll always be tricky.

The combined cardmanagement and cardflow advantages of playing characters from sideboard are not related to the (dis)advantage of MP play (as has been proven in many tournament games, where Balrog simply outsped opponents, mainly FW's, so possibly doubling a source of MP/ making it impossible to modify MP's, scoring big results). After all, the 1 MP chars are not forbidden to Balrog. Basically with the character from sb rule, you're fixing a hole by building a pile.

So imo, either the character from sb rule must go/change, or the effect on cardflow lessened (e.g. by lowering the appeal of char from sb and the MP gathering effect of it; hence the 3 mind rule).

[Sauron]

Let's go with your thought experiment and factor out Balrog vs Balrog play.

There are 4, 7 or higher mind Balrog Specific Characters that he can play.

For minion there are (Lt x3, Mouth, Baduila, Grimborgoth, Elerina) 7 I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.
So the Balrog is already restricted in the choice there.

Let's assume the Balrog plays those 1MP characters, so instead of having a deck with 1 or 2 big guys to make up for those MPs, you say they should stock 6-9 1 MP chars to give them even a worse card flow mangement? A minion can drop 1 3 MP char which would be 2-3 turns for a Balrog player. Again it's not just MPs, but the efficeny of playing the MPs.

So you claim card mangement and flow to be a reason? Then I propose we ban all play from the discard pile for FW, what's stopping a FW from dumping from the SB to the discard pile and playing from there? It obviously helps with card mangement and flow. So if we ban it for Balrog we must also ban all other Card Flow and Card Management techniques the game has created. Everything should be directly from deck to hand, to play and no other methods should be acceptable. Yes this is extreme but this is what you're arguing for.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

So imo, either the character from sb rule must go/change, or the effect on cardflow lessened (...)

How can you not see that what I say here is that the combination of factors, namely playing characters and MP's from sideboard, is the issue? I didn't think that was so unclear. So your "assumed proposal" is a bit misplaced. Nevertheless, I will address some of your issues.

Yes you got only 4 big minders, but can you name me any better characters in the game? So I'd be content, and I've seen few Balrog decks that willingly don't start any of these. With said 4 big guys in pool, Balrog is on par with any other alignment. As I said, Balrog has biggest GI/DI total in the game because of these characters.
Factoring out Balrog/Balrog, you don't have to worry about bouncing them where minion vs minion do, or even opponent might play one of those agents before you can (if you don't start them), and starting agents brings along its own set of issues. There are also plenty mid-mind characters available for MP's and with good stats, why stick to 9 1 MP characters? In addition, Balrogs can play 3x ORders from Demon, allowing them a super company for minions. And to top it, Balrog can play non-uniques pretty easily in the underdeeps, which is a lot more difficult for other alignments (except Troll brothers, which Balrog can also use of course), so even better cardflow...

....still, why is this relevant? the issue is speed here, not overall balance (don't get me started there). You honestly trying to tell me you think a FW can outrun a Balrog deck?? You honestly want me to do the math? Have you never played meccg? Carambor can outrun you, short-rest, dump and dunk, and serious indy-decks, that's it basically, and these have other sorts of troubles.

And of course there is a difference between playing MP's from sideboard, playing non-MP's from sideboard, recycling cards from discard, and bringing cards to your hand from discard (during end-of-turn e.g.). You really want me to spell out the differences for cardmanagement and cardflow?

[Sauron]

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
How can you not see that what I say here is that the combination of factors, namely playing characters and MP's from sideboard, is the issue? I didn't think that was so unclear. So your "assumed proposal" is a bit misplaced. Nevertheless, I will address some of your issues.

Yes you got only 4 big minders, but can you name me any better characters in the game? So I'd be content, and I've seen few Balrog decks that willingly don't start any of these. With said 4 big guys in pool, Balrog is on par with any other alignment. As I said, Balrog has biggest GI/DI total in the game because of these characters.

Define better characters? Depends on the deck, but I'd say Grimborth Goth is awesome, Warrior, Ranger, Sage. Baduila Warrior, Ranger, Scout. The Mouth is incredible if the proper deck is built. I've just named 3 characters that are at the same level.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Factoring out Balrog/Balrog, you don't have to worry about bouncing them where minion vs minion do, or even opponent might play one of those agents before you can (if you don't start them), and starting agents brings along its own set of issues. There are also plenty mid-mind characters available for MP's and with good stats, why stick to 9 1 MP characters? In addition, Balrogs can play 3x ORders from Demon, allowing them a super company for minions. And to top it, Balrog can play non-uniques pretty easily in the underdeeps, which is a lot more difficult for other alignments (except Troll brothers, which Balrog can also use of course), so even better cardflow...

If Balrog is so overpowered and broken as you claim, then you can't really factor our Balrog vs Balrog because that matchup should happen under your scenario because it's so powerful, so the limited character choice plays an even bigger part here.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
....still, why is this relevant? the issue is speed here, not overall balance (don't get me started there). You honestly trying to tell me you think a FW can outrun a Balrog deck?? You honestly want me to do the math? Have you never played meccg? Carambor can outrun you, short-rest, dump and dunk, and serious indy-decks, that's it basically, and these have other sorts of troubles.

FW decks can most certainly outrun a Balrog Deck, alot of FW decks are squatter decks, but you can build FW decks that out pace a Balrog deck. Just because you haven't doesn't mean it can't be done. You ask if I have never played meccg? Seriously? What kind of simple minded thinking is it, that a Balrog automatically gets to out run all decks besides Short-Rest, Carambor, serious indy-decks thats it? How much have you played I may ask? Why isn't everyone always playing Balrog then to win tournaments? How come every tournament winner isn't Balrog? I've personally witnessed a 3 turn Sauron deck for Worlds Finals, but obviously that can't happen.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
And of course there is a difference between playing MP's from sideboard, playing non-MP's from sideboard, recycling cards from discard, and bringing cards to your hand from discard (during end-of-turn e.g.). You really want me to spell out the differences for cardmanagement and cardflow?

[/quote]
FW Rad - play allies from discard
FW Pallando - Get Factions, and 1/2 Orcs from Discard

Are just 2 examples of your card mangement and card flow. If the mechanic is so broken with Balrog, then it's just as broken for FW and therefore must be removed as per your arguement that it's too advantageous to be able to do that.

[marcos]

baduila isnt better than buth

[Sauron]

He can cancel the auto attack at sites and denies the opponent from using him against you

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Don't take things too personal and think in general lines. I was surprised to find someone would think FW could matchup with a Balrog in speed, in general, obviously you can't compare each and every deck, I've seen minion dunk in 2. Playing stage cards greatly obstructs cardflow, so you'd need to keep that to a minimum. Not to mention quite a few stage cards require a SP minimum; more obstruction. And of course SP's bring along a whole set of dangers. Squatter decks, btw. are generally always slower than movers, you'll agree.

It's not a good habit to make assumptions for other people. First you state I imply all deckmanipulation should be abolished, now you say I think Balrog is broken? It's nice if you quote people, but then to make incorrect inferences makes that moot.
Anyway, I didn't invent the 3 mind rule, nor took the initiatieve, so what does that tell you? Balrog decks have ruled many a Worlds (up till 2003 at least in consecutive years).

Playing factions/allies from discard is good, sure. Still 1) FW are at a disadvantage cardflow-wise as explained above, and 2) you'll need your avatar in play who needs to tap to get them from sb, which means you might need to wait until turn X to do that, which lessens the speed advantage. Pallando get 1/2 Orcs? Strident Spawn setup will take a full cycle almost. Ask Bandobras, he usually plays 30 hazard perms to compensate the lack of speed for his Saruman decks

I think Balrog/Balrog matchups should not be taken into account, because same avatar matchups in general should not be taken into account when determining the strength of a deck, that's meta-game considerations, but moreover, both players suffer the same disadvantages, and the player who gets out his avatar generally wins big time, there is no balance there anyway. Suppose One Ring is completely broken, in One Ring/One Ring decks only 1 can dunk, so it would be weird to say "well we don't fix it because One Ring always plays against eachother."

Characters: of course it depends on the use of the character, but you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks there are better characters than Buthrakaur. The lieutenants have less skills and less DI. How many people play Mouth? he's too unreliable. btw some people would like WHCtK like ACM, so then you can forget about using Mouth at all. Golodhros is Dunadan and agent, he's difficult to combine in companies and popular as hazard. And who is Grimborth Goth? Grimburgoth is good, but has little DI and thus makes company composition more difficult.

To turn the questions around:
You think the 3 mind rule puts Balrogs at a disadvantage?
You think playing Balrog is not disproportionately strong?
Assuming you accept what others think, how would you fix that?

[Sauron]

To turn the questions around:
You think the 3 mind rule puts Balrogs at a disadvantage?
You think playing Balrog is not disproportionately strong?
Assuming you accept what others think, how would you fix that?

The 3 mind rule as it currently stands is fine in my opinion.
I do not think Balrog is disproportionately strong.
I do not think there needs to be a fix.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

To be clear, I meant the Balrog 2 mind rule, i.e. disallowing 3 minders from sb. But probably you got that.

Well your arguments contra introducing 2 mind rule aren't very convincing. But, we'll see how convincing the arguments pro will be to the rest of the community, which is what matters of course.

[Sauron]

To be clear, I meant the Balrog 2 mind rule, i.e. disallowing 3 minders from sb. But probably you got that.

Well your arguments contra introducing 2 mind rule aren't very convincing. But, we'll see how convincing the arguments pro will be to the rest of the community, which is what matters of course.

Aren't very convining to you. As your arguements for it aren't very convincing to me.

[Bandobras Took]

One Ring vs One Ring is not the same thing as avatar vs. avatar.

There are any number of methods to prevent your opponent from getting out the One Ring before you do, and even then, there is no guarantee that the Ring Test will succeed.

The odds are much more likely that Balrog vs Balrog will bounce characters. In that case, you need to fill up the company in a hurry. Otherwise the game drags. Badly. Which is not fun.

The only thing that makes the Balrog character play ability stronger than it should be is We Have Come to Kill. Playing three minders from the sideboard is merely a side effect of the real game-breaker, which is letting characters be played during the site phase at all outside of an influence attempt.

Without We Have Come to Kill, you're talking about one extra character point/turn in the organization phase. As Sauron has pointed out, heroes will be scoring more MPs anyway, FWs have MPs from the discard pile options, and RWs have access to more character/factions. It balances out.

I completely feel that targeting the Balrog because he has a synergy with a given card is looking at the wrong end of things.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Well, if it balances out, and I'm saying if, because how many other alignments do you know that can play a 2 MP ally and 3 MP faction at their haven?, then it balances out after the Balrog has called his Day of Decision...and this has been proven time and again.

I'll leave the discussion on overal balance for what it is, cause as I've said time and again, it's mainly a speed issue. Of course the others have ample ways to play MP's, the same GI/DI leaves the same amount of character MP's. But before you can cash on your Prophet of Doom, Balrog is already doing the victory dance.

The combo playing chars from sideboard and scoring MP's from sideboard gives it a double strenght. Whichever we tackle is fine with me, but I'd say the 2 mind rule is more conservative than disallowing sideboard play at all, or banning WHCtK.

btw. afaik Balrog can play 2 3minder per org.phase, so that makes a 2 MP gain per turn without carddraw. Relating it to a possible char other alignments play is not relevant, as they have to draw and thus time it, which means they might not be able to play any at all. A Balrog is ASSURED of playing 2! Another great feat of playing from sideboard, it gives tactical advantage as well as cardflow and cardmanagement advantage. You can start with Bumi/Bolg/Radbug AND be assured you drop 2x Hill Troll in the first turn. Now tell me how you will match that...

In fact, I'll give you another one, if the char is discarded by a CC or body check, you can just get him back from discard.

Believe you me on knowing the strength of Balrog, I designed the 2003 Worlds deck with which Jeroen Ouwehand became champ (after I'd been beaten several times by similar decks in the years before, to be honest , credits also to Arco).

[Sauron]

A Balrog is ASSURED of playing 2! Another great feat of playing from sideboard, it gives tactical advantage as well as cardflow and cardmanagement advantage. You can start with Bumi/Bolg/Radbug AND be assured you drop 2x Hill Troll in the first turn. Now tell me how you will match that...

You seem to assume Great Shadow Balrog only. What happens in a Flame of Udun Balrog deck where the GI/DI isn't like the Great Shadow. A player is not guarenteed to play those 2 characters 1st turn as you claim.

Also note my FW Radagast deck plays, 3 factions, 7-8 allies all without moving from a Haven.