Tournament Time Limits

[Sauron]

I have a question for those of you who play in tournaments in real life and online.

Do you like time limits?

Do you think it's fair to impose time limits in real life tournament games? Why or Why not?

Do you think it's fair to impose time limits in online tournament games? Why or Why not?

I keep seeing online tournaments stating they are following CoL Tournament Policy, but then also say there aren't time limits. This seems very contrary. You can't be both following tournament policy and not following tournament policy.

The given time limit for a GO 2 Deck game is 80 minutes. I personally feel either in real life or online you should be able to complete the game in the time given. I think it shows an utter lack of respect to the game and to the playing partner when you take excessively long turns. Why should I be forced to play a 6 hour game because you play like a snail?

To show the extreme of this lack of time limit; in the next round of Nations Cup each of my turns will be 45+ mins. I'd bring a recliner and a book.

Sincerely,
Sauron

[Nknma]

To show the extreme of this lack of time limit; in the next round of Nations Cup each of my turns will be 45+ mins. I'd bring a recliner and a book.

I think this only shows your extreme lack of maturity. If you can't talk over the matter without going to such extremities in the middle of event which you very well knew didn't have time limit when you decided to participate, maybe you should consider a while longer next time before participating.

On the topic: I agree with you. Online tournaments should have time limits too. But in my opinion tournaments where only one game is played during a day (like NC) time limit could very well be a bit longer than in normal tourney, where you have to play 3-5 games during a day. After all that's is why they are in the rules - to get all the games played in a day or two. Maybe 100-120 minutes would be good for online tourneys? The extra 20 minutes or so should fit well for everyone's schedule, but it makes playing more relaxed when you don't have to check your watch all the time to see if you can make it to the fourth turn.

-Tomi

[Sauron]

I think this only shows your extreme lack of maturity. If you can't talk over the matter without going to such extremities in the middle of event which you very well knew didn't have time limit when you decided to participate, maybe you should consider a while longer next time before participating.

I have brought this topic up every year Tommi, and every year no one ever says or does anything about it and I'm fed up with it. I can play a game on gccg in 50 mins, 80 mins or even 100 mins would be fine, but in nations cup year after year I've played 2+ hour games, 3+ hour games, etc. If fellow players continue to disregard a decent time limit, then I'll be forced to do something in protest. So my protest for this year will be 45+ min turns. If this doesn't cause discussion, I will continue my protest and next year it'll be 1 hour turns, etc.

You say it shows my extreme lack of maturity, I think it shows strength of fortitude to protest against the establishment and show how silly the no-time limit policy is.

And note Tommi it isn't actually listed anywhere that there aren't time limits.

http://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewto ... f=7&t=1626
Tournament rules from the Nations Cup Rules Post
Format:

The games are 2-deck general opponent, standard rules in use. The tournament will be played in two parts. First there will be three or four rounds (depending on the number of participating teams according to the CoL tournament rules) of Swiss System. After this, the top four teams will continue to play in semi-finals and finals. You are not allowed to change your decks at any point during the preliminary round. In more detail:

Swiss System
* Teams' Tournament Points are determined by adding together the TPs of players playing for a team. Normal tie-breakers are in use.
* In the first round the pairing of players is random. After this, personal TPs are used to see which players will face each other (highest ranked vs. highest ranked from opposing team).

Semi-finals and finals
* It is allowed to change the deck before semi-finals start. All players changing their decks needs to register them before any of his teammates starts playing.
* Semi-finals will be played between teams seeded 1st and 4th, as well as teams seeded 2nd and 3rd. The winning teams continue to finals, losing teams will play for 3rd place in the tournament.

* The TPs teams got in Swiss System are no longer in effect. Only TPs received from each game (team vs. team) are now considered to see which team will win. The 1st tie-breaker is the number of wins. The 2nd is the game between the captains (see below).
* Team captains will face each other. Personal TPs received throughout the tournament will be used to determine which other players face each other (highest ranked vs. highest ranked).

Other things to note
* The tournament will start 15th of January. You will have one week to finish the game assigned to you. (Normally from Sunday to Sunday; Contact your opponent to decide when you will play the game. You need to report back to me (marcosicaceres[at]hotmail.com) with the results by the following Monday morning. I will post the new pairings asap, and again the deadline is the following Monday.

* To play, you need to have registered your decks before your first game. In order to register a deck, you need to load it and use the command "/rd". To register the second deck, use the commad "/rd2" (be careful not to use those commands during the tournament, as they will replace your registered deck). One of those decks is vs. Hero and the other vs. Minion. You may add an anti-Fw sideboard to only one of those decks, and must use that deck in every game you play vs. Fw. When you start a game, GCCG should say the deck is registered and in its original form.

* You are not allowed to 'scout' your opponents' decks.

* We follow the rules which are officially confirmed by the Council of Elrond and the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien.
End of Tournament Rules

Tommi looking at the posted rules for nations cup please show me where it says no time limit is in effect? I clearly see:
* We follow the rules which are officially confirmed by the Council of Elrond and the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien.
CoL Tournament Policy clear states a 2 deck GO game is 80 minutes long.


Sincerely,
Sauron

[Nknma]

I think this only shows your extreme lack of maturity. If you can't talk over the matter without going to such extremities in the middle of event which you very well knew didn't have time limit when you decided to participate, maybe you should consider a while longer next time before participating.

I have brought this topic up every year Tommi, and every year no one ever says or does anything about it and I'm fed up with it. I can play a game on gccg in 50 mins, 80 mins or even 100 mins would be fine, but in nations cup year after year I've played 2+ hour games, 3+ hour games, etc. If fellow players continue to disregard a decent time limit, then I'll be forced to do something in protest. So my protest for this year will be 45+ min turns. If this doesn't cause discussion, I will continue my protest and next year it'll be 1 hour turns, etc.

You say it shows my extreme lack of maturity, I think it shows strength of fortitude to protest against the establishment and show how silly the no-time limit policy is.

Can't share that opinion, no matter what point of view I take. To me this looks like you just acted after moment of frustration after last nights game (no matter how long a moment )

As you have participated the tournament every year you might remember that there's never been time limit and I couldn't find your suggestion to add one to this years cup http://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewto ... f=7&t=1596
It's good thing you bring this up, but I just think your timing and way of doing it are completely wrong and I hope you change your mind about it.

Since online gaming is gaining more foothold in the community, I suggest that CoE should consider doing similar universal rules set for online tournaments that we have for regular tournaments. There must be more things than just time limit to consider when comparing live and online circumstances.

Until that you might want to ask the tournament organizer to change the rules before tournament starts.

-Tomi

ps. Don't mix me with the numerous Tommi's here, I go with only 1 'm'.

[Sauron]

Sorry Tomi

[Bandobras Took]

Personally speaking, I've been on the receiving end of a slow player in a tournament setting where there was a time limit. The result was that I got maybe 15% of the play time, which is irritating, to say the least, when your deck needs to hurry through.

A time limit for the game is insufficient. It opens up the exploit of the slow player in the lead. ("Sorry, my connection's slow, etc.")

Each player needs a time limit. If there were a way to start and stop a timer on each player's turn, and each player only got forty minutes, you'd have a lot less slow play crap flying around. If you've prepared for a tournament and built your deck, you should know what you're going to do and when you're going to do it, or you deserve to lose.

If you run out of your forty minutes and your opponent doesn't, he just gets to keep taking turn after turn. Have fun trying to win with that.

In short, I agree in principle with Sauron. In a two-deck format there's no excuse for playing slowly. But a time limit for the game is insufficient because slow players will continue to play slowly and squeeze out those of us who have actually bothered to prepare, practice, and play.

Just my two cents.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Though some stuff goes faster online, like shuffling a deck, other stuff takes bit more time, especially to those with less skills or experience in handling the program and/or the computer. In my experience, on average an online game even takes a bit longer.

Nknma's argument about playing a one day tournament is valid: time limit is mainly there to smooth out the process, not to prevent stalling or hurry up slow coaches (to the benefit of those who play faster). In fact, without a time limit, stalling would be rather pointless. The tighter the time limit, the more stalling issue's you'll get, and the more you'd need judges to intervene. This is not in accordance with the nature of the game.

I can definitely imagine Sauron's frustration though. A time limit of 120 mins. would probably suffice and be a good middle ground. However, Sauron, be aware that it will not mitigate your frustrations with slow players, for that you'd need a chess clock and award both players the same amount of time.

cheers
Eric (CoE member)

[Sauron]

Ben & Eric

You would not need a chess clock. With a time limit a slow/stalling player will be in violation of item 19 of the CoL Policy. A judge would come watch and if it's deemed they're stalling with no respect to the limit or for gainful purpose then the Judge can automatically award victory to the non-stalling player and they would get the max TPs their deck could reasonably expect to generate.

What we need is judges who will enforce tournament policy. Many judges are reluctant to enforce tournament policy is a major issue of conceren.

[Bandobras Took]

Though some stuff goes faster online, like shuffling a deck, other stuff takes bit more time, especially to those with less skills or experience in handling the program and/or the computer. In my experience, on average an online game even takes a bit longer.

That's an objection I have right there.

If I start a game in real life, I expect my opponent to shuffle his cards reasonably quickly even if it does take time. I expect him to have at least practiced so I'm not waiting for three minutes while he figures out how to shuffle his cards, then starts shuffling.

If you sign up for an online tournament, you have a responsibility to learn the program well enough that you aren't slowing things down. Tournaments are by definition not casual. I'm as patient as the next man (or more than most, actually) when it comes to casual games, but I don't believe in "less skill in handling the program and/or the computer" as a valid excuse any more than I would accept "less skill in knowing the turn order and/or what direct influence means." It's part and parcel of preparing for an online tournament.

If you sign up for such, you should know the game and the program. If you don't have sufficient experience in either area, play several or many casual games first so that you can become familiar.

[Bandobras Took]

Ben & Eric

You would not need a chess clock. With a time limit a slow/stalling player will be in violation of item 19 of the CoL Policy. A judge would come watch and if it's deemed they're stalling with no respect to the limit or for gainful purpose then the Judge can automatically award victory to the non-stalling player and they would get the max TPs their deck could reasonably expect to generate.

What we need is judges who will enforce tournament policy. Many judges are reluctant to enforce tournament policy is a major issue of concern.

Indeed. Though the chess clock relieves any personal rancor that might result. If a judge says you're stalling, you can promptly accuse them of favoritism/prejudice/what have you. If you can point to the clock and say, "Look! I've spent 10 minutes on my three turns and you've spent 40 on your two!", all complaints go out the window except the one that matters.

As a side note, I think such accusations (prejudice, favoritism) are a reason judges are reluctant. Ostensibly, even in a tournament setting, people are there to have fun and judges are reluctant to bring conflict into such. Of course, the ultimately results in the people who actually are there to have fun not having as much, but what can you do?

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Ben, as usual, you assume too much

Plenty a tournament game is played with newbees, heck I've played tournaments where opponent had to read each card...
It is not the CoE policy to create a major league where all the big boys with 500+ games can have fun together.

And truth be told, if I haven't played online for a while, my skills are rusty as well, I forget shortkeys and click on on a sideboard card accidently. Many will recognize this. So I'm less than proficient, sue me. Nevertheless, this is not what takes up the majority of time, most time is spent on deciding what to discard, which site to go, etc. Inexperienced players or players with an untested deck need more time with this, so be it.

About Judges, they are mainly there to solve rules issues, settling a conflict between players should only in ultimum remedium be done by a Judge. This isn't the supreme court, it's a friendly and fun game. It is more than understandable a Judge would hesitate to disqualify a player on grounds of stalling, it would have to be a very clear cut case. And again, the tighter the time limit, the more pressure you put on the game, the more conflict you'll get and more need for a Judge.

[Bandobras Took]

Nevertheless, this is not what takes up the majority of time, most time is spent on deciding what to discard, which site to go, etc. Inexperienced players or players with an untested deck need more time with this, so be it.

I have to say, when I've seen somebody take upwards of twenty minutes in the organization phase, it hasn't been an inexperienced or untested player. Ditto which cards to discard.

I can forgive accidental clicks/doing the wrong thing. But as you said, these things do not take up a lot of time. Inexperience with the program is therefore no excuse.

Mainly, there's a level of good manners in signing up for such a thing. You're there to have fun, but you're also there to let your opponent have fun. Forcing him to wait for absurdly long portions of time while you dink around is not well-mannered at all.

[i gwanunig]

One thought from my side

Every year NC struggles to get enough teams to play a decent tourney, or even get eneven number of teams. So some teams depends on newbies (to meccg and/or gccg). As I play only NC online I count myself as such in gccg (as well I play the game for more +10yrs).
I have to confess I don´t like playing meccg online. I don´t know why. Its not the computer stuff cause I earn my living with that. Its just I cannot enjoy it.But once a year I really like to participate in NC. Once for the idea of having a NATION cup, second to support my teammates (with constant 2-4 results ).

Imagine the attraction for players which play very rare that game online when you impose now that time-limit stress. They will get stressed/frustrated maybe drop out, but for sure will not participate the next time.

Maybe you also have think in kind another way about 6hrs games.
Example: In 20 yrs nobody remembers specific games against each other, but here in Austria everyone remembers a 6hrs DavisCup-Game against Skoff-Wilander cause it took 6hrs (you know - no tiebreaks in DavisCup)

So be a sportsman

Thomas

[Beornd]

Pardon me i´m not the best in english but its time to put in my two cents. The same procedure as every year Subject of the discussion is only one player. He is very ambitious and an excellent player and he wants to win like all of us and this takes for him up a lot of time. So we can discuss like every year but we see it´s hard to find the right solution. But infact 95% of all games running in a normal way (time). My games always last between 90 to 120 min and i´m not a really fast player. So we have to share the view of those who prefer to play with a majority of paritcipants - we need them all and it makes a lot of more fun. And to not mix real-life games (tournaments) with online games (tournaments) thats not the right way

[Alter Tuk]

As Bernd said, this discussion is just as old as the Nations Cup itself. The original idea about not setting up a time limit in this tournament was that a) its simply not necessary as the players dont play simultanious and the tournament has a long time limit itself (1 week each round) and b) we once thought its nicer to play the games in the casual way which we play every day on gccg. I know, I know, the Nations Cup is much to serious to play in a casual way but if I look at my games in all those years, most of them were normal games in terms of the time they took. May last game took little more than one hour!

Brian, play a fast deck and if your opponent is stalling, just ask him if he could play a little bit faster. Last year we had the discussion after your game vs Trossel and as far as I can tell he is playing way faster than ever (no need to stop the running gags though).

That said I must say that I still agree with you and I would be annoyed, too, if a organisation phase would take 20 minutes. That makes one beer each organisation phase. Too much for me during the week....