About palantir of elostirion

[Bandobras Took]

If the bearer is a sage: your hand size increases by one and the bearer is able to use this Palantir this turn if he taps. With its bearer able to use a Palantir, tap Palantir of Elostirion to draw a card. Bearer then makes a corruption check.

The hand size increase only requires a Sage. The card draw requires the ability to use a Palantir.

So we're both correct.

[Konrad Klar]

Or we are not...

"If the bearer is a sage: your hand size increases by one and the bearer is able to use this Palantír this turn if he taps."
is what happens/can be done if a bearer is sage, even if he is not able to use Palantír (after all, for what he would tap if he would be already able?),
and is what does not happen/cannot be done if a bearer is not sage, even if he is able to use this Palantír.

If some function of Palantír is not accessible for bearer, even he is able to use this Palantír, why this effect should count as "using a Palantír"?

Distinction between "effect of using a Palantír" and "other effect of a Palantír" may potentially have impact on something (Palantír of Osgiliath is already covered by CRF).

[Bandobras Took]

Especially since the Palantir of Amon Sul has no such clarification, yet can duplicate the Palantir of Elostirion.

And if we make a special consideration for the phrase "use a Palantir," then it's impossible to "use" the Hero Palantir of Elostirion, correct?

If the bearer is a sage, he may tap Palantir of Elostirion to remove one corruption card from an Elf or a Wizard under your control. Bearer makes a corruption check.

[Konrad Klar]

Correct.
Hero Palantír of Elostirion does not check for bearer's ability of using a/this Palantír. And Align Palantír will not help a non-sage bearer.

P.S.
Part of effects of hero Palantír of Amon Sûl was not usable until Lidless Eye.
Likewise A Malady Without Healing was not feasible until White Hand (the card cannot be played on opponent's character, and minion player does not control hero characters).

[Maethmaenor]

Part of effects of hero Palantír of Amon Sûl was not usable until Lidless Eye.
Likewise A Malady Without Healing was not feasible until White Hand (the card cannot be played on opponent's character, and minion player does not control hero characters).

I don't understand this, as the text is

‐ Greater Item (R)
[MP: 3(5); CP: 3]
Unique. Palantír. If the bearer’s company is ever below 2 characters and the company moves, discard the Palantír. 5 marshalling
points if stored in a Haven [ ]. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Amon Sûl to look at your opponent’s
hand or tap it to use the abilities of either the Palantír of Annúminas or the Palantír of Elostirion if either one is in play. Bearer
makes a corruption check.

What part wouldn't be usable until MELE?

And, regarding the discussion, what would be the conclusion? For example, for the minion version of Palantír of Amon Sûl: "...With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Amon Sûl to look at your opponent’s hand or tap it to use the abilities of either the minion Palantír of Annúminas or minion Palantír of Elostirion if either one is in play..."

Supposed, the bearer of minion PoAS is a sage able to use it, minion PoE is in play: If I tap the PoAS with the second option: can I or can not use the option " your hand size increases by one"? Is this understood as "using the Palantír" or not (according to the reasoning of Konrad)?

[Konrad Klar]

Supposed, the bearer of minion PoAS is a sage able to use it, minion PoE is in play: If I tap the PoAS with the second option: can I or can not use the option " your hand size increases by one"? Is this understood as "using the Palantír" or not (according to the reasoning of Konrad)?

(according to the reasoning of Konrad):
No.

Hero Palantír of Amon Sûl can use ability of minion Palantír of Elostirion (that after "With its bearer able to use a Palantír.").

[Maethmaenor]

Hero Palantír of Amon Sûl can use ability of minion Palantír of Elostirion (that after "With its bearer able to use a Palantír.").

I understand your reasoning, it make a lot of sense, it is rigorous and I agree with it. But I wonder if ICE had the real intention of that. Because with hero PoAS I can't use the hero PoE, but I suspect ICE wanted that I can. But if we are strict with the text, should be that clear (or maybe still not so?)

[Konrad Klar]

But I wonder if ICE had the real intention of that.

I do not believe so.
But if someone want to be consistent and use some card as it was (probably) intended by its creator, then sometimes he must make/demand/request errata for that card.
Or to find other pattern and be consistent without errata.

But if we are strict with the text, should be that clear (or maybe still not so?)

It is not explicitly stated anywhere in rules what counts as "using a Palantír".
It is only clearly (I hope) visible in case of Palantír of Elostirion that some effects do not require/do not check for ability of using a/this Palantír, but instead require/check for other condition (sage skills, tapping a sage bearer).

In text of hero Palantír of Elostirion:
"If bearer is a sage, he is able to use this Palantír. If bearer is able to use this Palantír," instead "If the bearer is a sage," would solve the problem.

Or rule:
"Any effect of a Palantír, that requires tapping the Palantír is considered as effect of using the Palantír".

Additionally (for both options) the rule "a corruption check that happens after other effects of using a Palantír do not count as effect of using a Palantír".
To remove double corruption checks: e.g. one caused by Palantír of Amon Sûl/Palantír of Osgiliath, other caused by Palantír that ability is used by bearer of Palantír of Amon Sûl/Palantír of Osgiliath.
Otherwise such corruption check can be considered as effect on a par with drawing card, looking at opponent's hand, searching for sage only card.

[Maethmaenor]

But if someone want to be consistent and use some card as it was (probably) intended by its creator, then sometimes he must make/demand/request errata for that card.
Or to find other pattern and be consistent without errata.

And regarding that. Is there still a regular update of the rules? I remember years ago I used to get a NetRep digest by mail in the mailing list by silent-tower (until I know, it is still active). I have seen here a voting about a rule in 2012, if I good remember.

There are still a lot of open questions, I can see.

Regards

[Bandobras Took]

The NetRep is currently charged with publishing digests and maintaining the Universal Rule Document (there's a sticky link at the top of the forum). Both tend to happen through this forum rather than any other medium, so far as I'm aware.

[Maethmaenor]

Ok. I can see the NetRep Corner under RULES AND RULINGS, but only if I visit the forum unlogged. If I log in, I see onlye Rules Questions. I know that the NetRep Corner was made invisible (I read once a thread), but I don't know why it is visible for unlogged visitors.

[Konrad Klar]

This is a known issue and probably it is not intended effect, even if nobody is willing to fix it.

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... f=4&t=2194

[Bandobras Took]

It's mainly my fault; during my tenure on the CoE, I felt that one of the ways in which the game environment could be improved was to both prod the NetRep into activity and push for greater consistency and standards in making rulings.

This naturally upset the NetRep. Now that I'm no longer on the CoE, I don't feel it to be a duty to complain any more, so that ban could probably be lifted.

[Maethmaenor]

And now are the corner and discussion visible (for unlogged and logged). I will take a look gradually in the old discussions. I noted also that I have the 1.1 version of the Universal Rules Document, but had overlooked that there is a newer file in google docs.