Ride Against the Enemy on a Ringwraith

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panotxa
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Thanks Bandobras, when all hope were lost...

The NetRep Ruling Digest made me think that I should be able of doing the trick because they were talking about an sceneario where you were able to use the same/different wizard/ringwraith as the one previously revealed. Which would be not possible if revealing this last wizard/ringwraith counted as "revealing" in the sense of "revealing your wizard/ringwraith" from the excerpt of the rules you've posted.

Let's see if there is any other plot twist in this story :roll:

EDIT: You're really fast Konrad!

Summing up... what should I do now? Should I ask my opponent, before a match, what does he think about "revealing your ringwraith", and depending on the answer just remove my ringwraiths from the deck? As a non english native speaker I don't see myself arguing in such a specific level of detail because sometimes I get lost in the middle of this "legal mambo-jambo"...
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Konrad Klar
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Also you can ask your opponent whether it is OK to include Sauron card in your FW deck.
Or you can wait for errata that will say why it is not OK.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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panotxa
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Related to this, I don't see why I can play a ringwraith with RATE after revealing my ringwraith (NetRep Ruling Digest) but I can't do the same being Sauron/LE...
If I have to wait for errata I'll have come back from Lure by then :lol:
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Konrad Klar
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panotxa wrote:Related to this, I don't see why I can play a ringwraith with RATE after revealing my ringwraith (NetRep Ruling Digest) but I can't do the same being Sauron/LE...
Literally The Lidless Eye/Sauron refer to the revealing a Ringwraith (just "a Ringwraith", not "your Ringwraith", not "Ringwraith as avatar").
It forbids any further revealing a Ringwraith for any purpose, so also with RATE.
The Lidless Eye/Sauron errated to "you have not revealed your Ringwraith", "You may not reveal your Ringwraith", would have these restriction loosened to "You may not reveal your Ringwraith or play Ringwraith followers.".

Player who has revealed his Ringwraith and has his Ringwraith removed from play do not suffer such restrictions (just because he do not have The Lidless Eye/Sauron in play, of course).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Bandobras Took
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Konrad Klar wrote:Literally The Lidless Eye/Sauron refer to the revealing a Ringwraith (just "a Ringwraith", not "your Ringwraith", not "Ringwraith as avatar").
It forbids any further revealing a Ringwraith for any purpose, so also with RATE.
I'll try to explain it another way:
MELE Rules wrote:You may play a Ringwraith card if you do not have one in play. This is called "Revealing your Ringwraith." You may not reveal a Ringwraith if your opponent has already revealed that Ringwraith.
Revealing a Ringwraith in the MELE Rules/Cardset is used interchangeably with revealing your Ringwraith. It has nothing to do with showing a card to your opponent.
MELE Rules wrote:When you reveal a Ringwraith or play a Ringwraith follower, any corresponding Nazgûl hazard in play is discarded.
So:
If someone asks whether playing the Khamul with RATE involves revealing the Khamul, I cannot deny.
That is indisputable. I am merely saying that the phrase "you may not reveal a Ringwraith" on Lidless Eye is used in the same sense it is used in the rulebook, which is more specific than the general sense of revealing a card.

Revealing a card that happens to be a Ringwraith character is not necessarily mechanically the same as revealing a Ringwraith.

See also Balrog Rules Summary:
During the game, you may "reveal" yourself. To do this, you play a Ringwraith or Wizard card.
This is a case of ICE using the same word to mean two different things, depending on the card in question. Lidless Eye prevents you from revealing a Ringwraith as outlined in the Balrog Rules Summary. It does not prevent Ride Against the Enemy, where "reveal" is used in a different sense.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
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Konrad Klar
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I agree.
So I acknowledge that whole series of phrases "reveal [a|your] Ringwraith" is not compatible with "reveal card", nor with "reveal character" (RATE, for example, says about revealing character, not about revealing a character card).

It is sad, if not shocking, that ICE was unable to find distinctive phrases for two different activities. Perhaps "playing a Ringwraith card as your Ringwraith" was looking awkward and "revealing a Ringwraith" was looking elegant for them. Who knows?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Bandobras Took
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Konrad Klar wrote:It is sad, if not shocking, that ICE was unable to find distinctive phrases for two different activities.
I've lived with the pain so long now that I've grown numb. :)
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
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panotxa
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Thank you for your time guys, it's been an interesting debate to follow.
To my mind the intentionallity of ICE with the Lidless Eye was not allowing you to reveal you ringwraith in the sense of revealing which "avatar" you are and not just in the generic sense of just showing a card that is a ringwraith. But it's just my interpretation and I'll have to stick to the actual text and hope it get's errated one day :roll:
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Shapeshifter
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From my point of view we don't need errata for this case but rather an official clarification from the netrep about what ' reveal' means in which cases.

Anyway, for me at least it would be ok to play RATE with Ringwraiths if you are Sauron or already have revealed your RW.
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panotxa
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Is there an official way of asking for a NetRep clarification or it's a decision spontaneously taken by it's members?
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Bandobras Took
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PMing the NetRep through this forum is how I usually take my questions to him.
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miguel
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Shapeshifter wrote:From my point of view we don't need errata for this case but rather an official clarification from the netrep about what ' reveal' means in which cases.

Anyway, for me at least it would be ok to play RATE with Ringwraiths if you are Sauron or already have revealed your RW.
No blanket statements about what "reveal" means forthcoming, but I agree that using RATE as described is fine.
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miguel
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Shapeshifter wrote:From my point of view we don't need errata for this case but rather an official clarification from the netrep about what ' reveal' means in which cases.

Anyway, for me at least it would be ok to play RATE with Ringwraiths if you are Sauron or already have revealed your RW.
No blanket statements about what "reveal" means forthcoming, but I agree that using RATE as described is fine.
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panotxa
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miguel wrote:No blanket statements about what "reveal" means forthcoming, but I agree that using RATE as described is fine.
Thank you Miguel, you made my day!
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