Token of Goodwill

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Token of Goodwill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Token of Goodwill wrote:Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
Only target of the card is a diplomat in specified company. Only declared action caused by the card is a corruption check (made by the diplomat).
Whether the company is able to discard an item, is so important as whether the diplomat is able to make a corruption check (ally-diplomat is not able).
It is not required by the card, and flow of the execution of the card does not rely on it, but at least presence of the diplomat is condition of the card, however presence of an item of given type is not.

Proposed erratum:

Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below and has an appropriate item. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Thorsten the Traveller »

has anybody every played this for no effect and/or to make a cc? I see the shortcoming of the card, but how is it a problem?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Bandobras Took »

I agree that it's not urgent, but better language on cards isn't a bad thing in and of itself.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Thorsten the Traveller wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:57 pm has anybody every played this for no effect and/or to make a cc? I see the shortcoming of the card, but how is it a problem?
Perhaps almost everybody tries to play a cards I though they were written correctly. Compelling reason for not making errata for cards at all.

And I did not say that in such case (no appropriate item in company, item cannot be discarded) there will be no effect. There will be the effect.
Token of Goodwill makes some action (discard) on item, but neither checks whether the action was successful, nor even requires an item in company at declaration.
Hour of Need requires a faction in player's hand, Long Grievous Siege (after errata) requires eligible site card in location deck.
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Theo
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Theo »

Alternative wording suggestion:
Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below) to make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Great.

Now a company without appropriate item may count only for not failing cc. Nothing to offer, nothing to gain.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:05 am Only declared action caused by the card is a corruption check (made by the diplomat).
... this is clearly not the only declared action. Look at the card long text:
  • If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence.
  • If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched).
Just because an action has a condition of "if something" does not mean that it is not declared.

To break it down, there are several other actions:
  • The "make a roll" action which has the active condition of "discard an item" and an additional condition of "if he does not fail" the corruption check.
  • The action of "the attack is canceled" which has the condition "If the result is greater than the listed values"
  • The action of "take one resource" which has the condition "If the result is greater than the listed values"
  • Even the reshuffling of the play deck if searched.
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:39 pm Token of Goodwill makes some action (discard) on item, but neither checks whether the action was successful, nor even requires an item in company at declaration.
Discarding of the item is clearly a cost, it is price that restricts the player from invoking the action. Therefore the rules on Active Conditions apply. It's true that "make a roll" action has the additional condition of "If he does not fail." But that does not prevent the discarding from being an active condition. Since discarding is a cost of making the roll, the company is required to discard the item in order to declare the "make a roll" action.

Of course, the card could still be played to cause a corruption check (actual card and with the CoE errata).
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Against the Shadow: A Lie in Your Eyes
R2 Hazard: Short-event

Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). "'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'"-LotRIII
Can you say that all that actions are declared?
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 pm Discarding of the item is clearly a cost, it is price that restricts the player from invoking the action.
What if Token of Goodwill will be canceled before resolved (by Many Sorrows Befall for example), or fizzled?
Will be an item discarded?

For me this is a crucial difference between discarding as an active condition and discarding as main effect.
Former happens at declaration, latter when an action resolves.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am
Against the Shadow: A Lie in Your Eyes
R2 Hazard: Short-event

Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). "'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'"-LotRIII
Can you say that all that actions are declared?
THAT'S BEEN HEARD BEFORE TONIGHT:
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:28 pm Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 04, 2018
I think that only declared action caused by Riddling Talk is a dice roll.
What will happen (or will not happen) later depends on result of the roll, therefore any objects manipulated by eventual later actions are not targets. Creature card is not target, its attacks are not targets.

So answer is: yes, Riddling Talk may be played on character facing an automatic-attack.
A Lie in Your Eyes wrote: Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). 'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'-LotRIII
At declaration it is not know what an opponent will choose: tapping target character, tapping an ally the character controls (if available), or making a dice roll. Result of the roll in not known too.
Therefore it cannot be said that tapping the character, tapping an ally, dice roll, or discarding the character are declared actions.
And because target of an action must be specified at declaration of the action, the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap". Character is still target of A Lie in Your Eyes, just because the card is played on it, but not because any action, potentially created by A Lie in Your Eyes may operate on it. Only declared action of A Lie in Your Eyes is choice.
Here's the root of the misconception: "And because target of an action must be specified at declaration of the action, the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap"." This misconception is based on a misinterpretation of Annotation 8: "An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved."

Just because the eventual action that will be chosen/happen is unknown does not mean that the target of an action is not a target. While the action may have other conditions that prevent the action from being implemented, the character is still a "target" because "an action that is played out through one or more specific entities as stated on a card or in the rules is considered to 'target' the entities. A targeted entity is said to be a 'target' of the action."

Actions declared/resolved when playing A Lie in Your Eyes
  • Action 1: Play of the A Lie in Your Eyes Hazard short-event card:
    • Target: the untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character
    • Condition 1: It is your opponent's movement/hazard phase.
    • Condition 2: There must be less hazards already declared than the hazard limit.
  • Action 2: Opponent chooses one of (A) tap the character, (B) tap an ally the character controls, or (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
  • Action 3: Tap (the character)
    • Target: The character
    • Condition: The opponent chose (A) tap the character
  • Action 4: Tap (an ally the character controls)
    • Target: The ally (the character controls)
    • Condition: The opponent chose (B) tap an ally the character controls
  • Action 5: Hazard player makes a roll
    • Condition: The opponent chose (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
  • Action 6: Discard (the character along with all cards he controls)
    • Target: The character
    • Condition 1: The opponent chose (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
    • Condition 2: The result is greater than the character's mind plus 6
  • Additional discard actions for "all cards he controls"
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 pm Discarding of the item is clearly a cost, it is price that restricts the player from invoking the action.
What if Token of Goodwill will be canceled before resolved (by Many Sorrows Befall for example), or fizzled?
Will be an item discarded?
Yes, the item will be discarded because this is an active condition that must be satisfied at declaration per Annotation 6. It is an active condition because discarding an item is a cost restricting the player from invoking actions. Of course, Token may be played without an item, in which case the active condition is not satisfied and the corresponding action (the roll adding the diplomat's unused DI) that required the item to be discarded is not declared per Annotation 6.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am For me this is a crucial difference between discarding as an active condition and discarding as main effect.
Former happens at declaration, latter when an action resolves.
This game does not use currency to pay costs. Costs are paid by establishing some game state using the limited actions allowed by the rules. Costs are also paid by paying (losing) the game state that you used your limited actions to create. Having an item in play required the player to use their limited actions (drawing a card, moving a company to a site, playing the card, etc.). Discarding your own resource (item) or character that you brought into play is a cost because it restricts you from taking that action -- the game only provides limited actions to the player for creating the game state. Tapping your own resource (item) or character that you brought into play is a cost because it restricts you from taking that action -- the game only provides limited actions to the player for creating the game state.

Tapping or discarding of your own cards by your own resource is an active condition because it is a cost. And costs must be paid upfront. I don't know of any game where costs are not paid upfront. Tapping/discarding of your own cards is never a "main effect" unless the card/rules specifies that timing is not upfront. For example, tapping a character to influence a faction is an active condition but the tapping the site is not an active condition since the timing is specified to happen when the faction is successfully influenced. Or another example is where your card is "discarded after something happens."

The expression "main effect" of Annotation 6 is some other beneficial effect (not a cost) -- one that either builds your game state or makes it easier to build your game state beyond what is allowed in the rules. Discarding/tapping of your own cards would never be a "main effect" per annotation 6.

The "main effect" of Token of Goodwill is "you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand." This is an action that is not allowed by the rules, which improves your game state by allowing you to draw a card, especially a card that you choose.

Hazards are different from resources but it works in a similar fashion. Tapping of opponents characters and resources is not a cost. Tapping of opponents cards by hazards is always a main effect. The opponent' game state is the cost for hazards because it restricts the hazard player from taking actions. Tapping/discarding of your own hazards by your own hazards is a cost since you spent limited game actions to create your hazard game state.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:28 pm Yes, the item will be discarded because this is an active condition that must be satisfied at declaration per Annotation 6.
Thanks for taking this little sanity test.
I believe that you can reconcile that with:
If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below),
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Re: Token of Goodwill

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:28 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:28 pm Yes, the item will be discarded because this is an active condition that must be satisfied at declaration per Annotation 6.
Thanks for taking this little sanity test.
I believe that you can reconcile that with:
If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below),
"If he does not fail" is a condition for the "make a roll" action just like "discard an item" is a condition for "make a roll." Given the mechanics of the game, the expression "if he does not fail" is not a condition for "discard an item" because the timing rules do not follow plain English. Even if he fails the corruption check, the item will have previously been discarded.

I already reconciled this above:
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 pm The "make a roll" action which has the active condition of "discard an item" and an additional condition of "if he does not fail" the corruption check.
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