WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

[Theo]

Beasts of the Wood and Wild Hounds modifications are self-contained; they explicitly state the requirement that must be met for the bonus.

"Men (+1)" is different from "If the influencing character is a Man (+1)". The second of these, also self contained, I would have no problem extrapolating regardless of the alignment of the player. The first means nothing without the additional rule given in METW for how to interpret it. Minion players have no such interpretation. FW players can interpret Men (+1) because MEWH redirects to METW.

And of course the ability to interpret "Dunlendings (+2)" is the exact opposite.

[Theo]

I think that Balrog summary (not only in the fragment) is incomplete and inaccurate. Whether to interpret "(heroes)", "(minions)" as alignment of players (lack of coverage of FW player), or whether to interpret it as race of influencer (lack of coverage of Radagast's Black Bird).

Besides in the fragment describing an influencing of opponent faction Balrog summary states:

"Apply any relevant standard modification"

It does not specify, which standard modification are relevant at this point.

Fallen Wizards need not be specified by the Balrog Summary because they have none of their own interpretation rules; they only inherit interpretation from the rules applied to heroes.

In general, I'd say a lack of information in a summary should not be interpreted as an indication that the information is not specified elsewhere. The information is elsewhere (the bullets). The presence of new clarifications should be considered helpful in interpretation of the information elsewhere, not ignored because of not being complete.

Of course, I'm sure there are examples otherwise. But in this case I see no cause for concern.

[Konrad Klar]

"Men (+1)" is different from "If the influencing character is a Man (+1)". The second of these, also self contained, I would have no problem extrapolating regardless of the alignment of the player. The first means nothing without the additional rule given in METW for how to interpret it. Minion players have no such interpretation. FW players can interpret Men (+1) because MEWH redirects to METW.

Most convincing argument I have heard until now.
Indeed without additional rule "Men (+1)" does not translate to "If the influencing character is a Man (+1)".
"Dunlendings (+2)" does not translate to "If Dunlendings are in play (+2)" without additional rule.
But I would have no problem translating "(heroes)", "(minions)" to 'against "(hero)","(minion)" faction'.

[Theo]

As RW player, I go to Wellinghall to influence my opponent's Ents of Fangorn faction. My opponent has the Hobbits faction in play.
Do I, as a RW player, get a +4 standard modification to the influence attempt as listed on the faction card?

At the moment this seems true, if not intended. Hobbits faction being in play even makes influencing itself easier. I'd be in favor of an errata clarifying that hero factions specifying "Hobbits" refer to an influencing character's race only (an unnecessary clarification when first released).

[Theo]

Oh shoot. A Few Recruits breaks the consistency (regardless of whether the Balrog Summary refers to player influencing or faction being influenced):

Modifications: The Balrog (+3), leader (+2).

Surely the modifications seem intended to be used. I blame their rush to print?

But I would have no problem translating "(heroes)", "(minions)" to 'against "(hero)","(minion)" faction'.

But then FW factions would indeed be left out, so this doesn't seem any more consistent.

I'd probably favor the simplicity of errata on A Few Recruits and leave the rest alone. Or indeed scrap the whole hero/minion distinction as Konrad has been saying from the beginning (chalk up the Balrog Summary to be written in terms of typical behavior, rather than absolute truth).

--edited for fullness of thoughts--

[Konrad Klar]

Oh shoot. A Few Recruits breaks the consistency:

It does not break. The modifications are not Standard Modifications.

But then FW factions would indeed be left out, so this doesn't seem any more consistent.

Current FW factions (factions of FW alignment, not factions under control of FW) do not have any Standard Modifications. Hypothetical may have.

[Theo]

Oh shoot. A Few Recruits breaks the consistency:

It does not break. The modifications are not Standard Modifications.

I would think "affect an influence check the same way" would include requirements for whether they are applied. But then, of course, Dragon modifications wouldn't fall under either hero interpretation, minion interpretation, or Beasts/Hounds self containment. Ok.

[Bandobras Took]

But I would have no problem translating "(heroes)", "(minions)" to 'against "(hero)","(minion)" faction'.

I would; the MELE rules mark the relevant standard modifications as differing based on the player's alignment.

It also doesn't solve the problem of what standard modifications to use when both the hero and minion version of the faction are relevant to the influence check.

[Bandobras Took]

You will not get any modifiers for revealed faction. You are performing an influence attempt against a faction in play, not against faction you have revealed. At this point it is not even known whether you will play the revealed card after successful attempt.

I missed this earlier, but that's inconsistent. Influencing a faction from your hand applies standard modifications without the faction yet being in play. There is no reason to treat a revealed faction differently simply because the opponent's version also happens to be in play.

[Konrad Klar]

I missed this earlier, but that's inconsistent. Influencing a faction from your hand applies standard modifications without the faction yet being in play. There is no reason to treat a revealed faction differently simply because the opponent's version also happens to be in play

Target of influence attempt against opponent's faction is just the opponent's faction. Revealing its own copy/manifestation by influencer is optional, playing it in case of success is option too.
What would be consistent? Doubling Standard Modifications in case of revealing a copy?

[Bandobras Took]

Consistency would be applying standard modifications uniformly as a player. If I gain a standard modification for the presence of the Dunlendings faction when attempting to play the Hillmen from my hand, the presence/absence of opponent's hero Hillmen should not alter that -- it just alters the target number and adds a -5 modifier.

[Konrad Klar]

At the point of revealing a copy/manifestation it is not known whether the copy/manifestation will be played in case of success.
Also an influence attempt against an opponent's faction does not require an untapped site, and does not tap in case of success. It differs from an influencing own faction.

[Theo]

Indeed, the Influencing an Opponent's Faction rules have roll modifications only based on the card you are trying to influence. A revealed faction only sets the "value to bring the faction into play" goal to zero.

[Bandobras Took]

BRINGING A FACTION INTO PLAY
In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check. Make a roll (2D6), add your character's unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played). All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total). Otherwise, you discard the faction card. Once a faction is brought into play, it is not controlled by any specific character and it does not count against general or direct influence.

Influencing an Opponent's Non-follower Character
To attempt to influence one of your opponent's non-follower characters you must make an influence check. You make a roll (2D6) and:
· Add the influencing character's unused direct influence.
· Subtract your opponent's unused general influence points.
· Subtract the result of a roll (2D6) made by your opponent.
· Add any other modifications (from cards and special abilities). All modification cards must be played before either player makes a roll.
If the modified result is greater than the target's mind attribute, the target character card and all of the non-follower cards he controls are discarded. Otherwise, nothing happens.
If you reveal an identical character card from your hand before making the roll for the influence check, the target character's mind attribute is treated as if it were zero. If the attempt is unsuccessful, you must discard the character card you revealed. If such an influence check is successful, the target character and his non-follower cards are discarded and dee revealed character card may be immediately played (appearing at the same site). In order to play this character, you must have enough unused general influence to control him or an influencing character at the same site must have enough direct influence.

To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
· Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value usually required to bring the faction into play (as given on the faction's card).
· The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card).
· Revealing an identical faction card reduces the value usually required to bring the faction into play to zero and allows you to play that card if the influence check is successful.
You may only influence an opponent's factions if the influencing character is at the site where the faction was played.

At what point does "any appropriate modifications" cease to include the standard modifications, that it gets deleted when you add "any other modifications?" Revealing the identical faction card provides the additional effects as noted, but that doesn't replace the primary effect.

[Theo]

BRINGING A FACTION INTO PLAY
In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check. Make a roll (2D6), add your character's unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played). All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total). Otherwise, you discard the faction card. Once a faction is brought into play, it is not controlled by any specific character and it does not count against general or direct influence.

The rules for influencing an opponent's faction give an alternative method of bringing a faction into play, so the above isn't applicable to influencing an opponent's faction.

Influencing an Opponent's Non-follower Character
To attempt to influence one of your opponent's non-follower characters you must make an influence check. You make a roll (2D6) and:
· Add the influencing character's unused direct influence.
· Subtract your opponent's unused general influence points.
· Subtract the result of a roll (2D6) made by your opponent.
· Add any other modifications (from cards and special abilities). All modification cards must be played before either player makes a roll.
If the modified result is greater than the target's mind attribute, the target character card and all of the non-follower cards he controls are discarded. Otherwise, nothing happens.
If you reveal an identical character card from your hand before making the roll for the influence check, the target character's mind attribute is treated as if it were zero. If the attempt is unsuccessful, you must discard the character card you revealed. If such an influence check is successful, the target character and his non-follower cards are discarded and dee revealed character card may be immediately played (appearing at the same site). In order to play this character, you must have enough unused general influence to control him or an influencing character at the same site must have enough direct influence.

To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
· Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value usually required to bring the faction into play (as given on the faction's card).
· The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card).
· Revealing an identical faction card reduces the value usually required to bring the faction into play to zero and allows you to play that card if the influence check is successful.
You may only influence an opponent's factions if the influencing character is at the site where the faction was played.

At what point does "any appropriate modifications" cease to include the standard modifications, that it gets deleted when you add "any other modifications?" Revealing the identical faction card provides the additional effects as noted, but that doesn't replace the primary effect.

Faction cards are not influence check modifier cards. A revealed faction is neither played nor are its Standard Modifications an ability, so they could not fit into the "other modifications" bullet. (underline mine) Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card (under either the second bullet for influencing an opponent's faction, or the Bringing A Faction Card Into Play rules).