Annotation 26: Untap phase - Long-Event phase hole

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Konrad Klar
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Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
What happens between Untap phase and Long-Event phase? What type of region is Rohan if Doors of Night, Morgul Night and Fell Winter is in play? [-me_wi-] or [-me_sl-] ?
Are [-me_rl-] in [-me_wi-] where Fallen Alatar may be bringed into play?

Proposed modification/clarification is changing of:

"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."
to
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the end of next long-event phase."
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miguel
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Konrad Klar wrote:What happens between Untap phase and Long-Event phase?
The organization phase? :wink:
Konrad Klar wrote:What type of region is Rohan if Doors of Night, Morgul Night and Fell Winter is in play? [-me_wi-] or [-me_sl-]?
Rohan is [-me_bl-] . Just having Rohan "on the map" won't let anything target it.
Konrad Klar wrote:Are [-me_rl-] in [-me_wi-] where Fallen Alatar may be bringed into play?
Yep, you can play Alatar normally.
Konrad Klar wrote:Proposed modification/clarification is changing of:

"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."
to
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the end of next long-event phase."
Nay.
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Konrad Klar
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So Morgul Night/Fell Winter does not have any effect until start of M/H phase in your opinion?
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miguel
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Well not unless their effects are triggered by something.
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Konrad Klar
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What may activate effect of Morgul Night? Is treating of [-me_wi-] as [-me_sl-] action caused by passive condition?
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miguel
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I suppose the sitepath in sites already in play could be affected. Can't think of any way how it could affect an actual region. And yes, Morgul Night creates a passive condition.
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Konrad Klar
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miguel wrote:And yes, Morgul Night creates a passive condition.
Oh... We differ even here.

If it is correct then I don't know any situation where Annotation26 should be used (multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied). For actions activated by passive condition respective part of CRF is sufficient.
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miguel
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For example Washed and Refreshed with minion Isles of the Dead That Live could create a situation (the tapping vs. untapping) where Annotation 26 is necessary. But yeah, it rarely gets used.
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Konrad Klar
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What means then:
Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
?

Some example, please...
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miguel
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Uhm.. that basically just means anything that will happen in a chain of effects. What gets resolved first is also applied first.

My example about Annotation 26 does not use a chain of effects, those effects are simply applied.
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zarathustra
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I still have some worries/doubts about all this.

First, I agree that just having a region "on the map" does not allow the region to be affected by cards like Morgul Night. This means that Alatar may be played even if MN is in play.

But then I have this little question: suppose Alatar comes into play at The Stones and MN is in play. What if Alatar now wants to play Hidden Haven on his site? I think that this should clearly be disallowed. The question then becomes: when does Andrast become a [-me_sl-]? I think the answer is: right after Alatar comes into play. It works, if I am right, like this:

1: Alatar played from hand at The Stones (i.e., he and The Stones are simultaneously brought into play). He may only be played here if the site is a [-me_rl-] in a [-me_wi-]. It is. No problem.
2: After The Stones is in play, it triggers the passive condition of MN.
3: Unless someone does something, MN's passive condition resolves and The Stones is considered to be in a [-me_sl-] .

Make sense?
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miguel
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zarathustra wrote:But then I have this little question: suppose Alatar comes into play at The Stones and MN is in play. What if Alatar now wants to play Hidden Haven on his site? I think that this should clearly be disallowed. The question then becomes: when does Andrast become a [-me_sl-]? I think the answer is: right after Alatar comes into play. It works, if I am right, like this:

1: Alatar played from hand at The Stones (i.e., he and The Stones are simultaneously brought into play). He may only be played here if the site is a [-me_rl-] in a [-me_wi-]. It is. No problem.
2: After The Stones is in play, it triggers the passive condition of MN.
3: Unless someone does something, MN's passive condition resolves and The Stones is considered to be in a [-me_sl-] .

Make sense?
But the resource player could respond to the declaration of Morgul Night's effect by playing Hidden Haven... :?

There is also a problem with giving region names a region type. Say I key a creature to Rhudaur (no MN in play), should my opponent be able to cancel a strike with Elven Cloak?

But yeah I agree, Hidden Havening when MN is out seems weird...
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Konrad Klar
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miguel wrote:
zarathustra wrote:But then I have this little question: suppose Alatar comes into play at The Stones and MN is in play. What if Alatar now wants to play Hidden Haven on his site? I think that this should clearly be disallowed. The question then becomes: when does Andrast become a [-me_sl-]? I think the answer is: right after Alatar comes into play. It works, if I am right, like this:

1: Alatar played from hand at The Stones (i.e., he and The Stones are simultaneously brought into play). He may only be played here if the site is a [-me_rl-] in a [-me_wi-]. It is. No problem.
2: After The Stones is in play, it triggers the passive condition of MN.
3: Unless someone does something, MN's passive condition resolves and The Stones is considered to be in a [-me_sl-] .

Make sense?
But the resource player could respond to the declaration of Morgul Night's effect by playing Hidden Haven... :?

There is also a problem with giving region names a region type. Say I key a creature to Rhudaur (no MN in play), should my opponent be able to cancel a strike with Elven Cloak?

But yeah I agree, Hidden Havening when MN is out seems weird...
All that problems are derivates of treating effects of cards like Morgul Night as actions caused by passive condition, not as continous effects.
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miguel
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My example about the creature keyed to Rhudaur vs. using Elven Cloak has nothing to do with Morgul Night...
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Konrad Klar
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miguel wrote:My example about the creature keyed to Rhudaur vs. using Elven Cloak has nothing to do with Morgul Night...
Right. Sorry.
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