Long Grievous Siege vs. Hero/FW

[Bandobras Took]

Playable on a unique non-Dragon faction. Place a Border-hold from your location deck "off to the side" with this card. The Border-hold must be in the same region or adjacent thereto as a site where the target faction is playable. Return any faction playable at the Border-hold to its owner's hand. -5 to any attempt to play a faction at any version of the Border-hold. All versions of the Border-hold gain an additional automatic-attack: same type as your target faction 5 strikes with 9 prowess (detainment against your companies). Cannot be duplicated on your faction.

It is vital to note that the bolded phrase lacks the two phrases "any version" and "all versions."

This means that only cards playable at the Border-Hold (the specific version targeted by Long Grievous Siege) are returned to the hand.

1) I am Hero. My opponent is RW. I have Hero Hillmen in play. Long Grievous is played on Cameth Brin.

Will the Hero Hillmen be returned to my hand because there is a minion version of the faction playable at the Minion Cameth Brin? The Hero version is not playable there.

2) Same situation, but my opponent is Balrog. There is no Minion Hillmen playable at Cameth Brin. Will the Hero Hillmen be returned to my hand if the faction is not playable by a specific Minion Player?

3) Same as 1, but I am now FW and have turned Cameth Brin into a Protected Wizardhaven. Are my Half-Orc factions returned to my hand?

4) Same as 1, but I am FW with Double-Dealing on the Hero Cameth Brin.

5) FW vs. FW.

Thoughts?

[Konrad Klar]

There are some cards reffering to a resource played at any version of the site (Faithless Steward, Long Grievous Siege, People Diminished, Eddy in Fate's Tide) and no card reffering to a resource playable at any version of the site.
Not for no reasons.
Resource is/is not playable at a site regardless on fact whether it may be played there or not. Orcs of Moria are playable at Moria, it normally may be played only at minion untapped Moria. Trouble on All Borders played on Orcs of Moria takes effect even if copy of Moria is hero, tapped or not in play.

1. Yes/No (for "The Hero version is not playable there.")
2. Yes. Faction cannot by played by Balrog opponent, although is playable ("playable only by X" is mental leap* that means "Is playale here and may by played only by X").
3. No. Half-Orc are playable at protected wizardhaven.
4. Yes.
5. As obove.

*) I'm not quite sure if "mental leap" is equivalent of polish "skrót myślowy" (literally "shortcut in thinking").

[Bandobras Took]

Trouble On All Borders is not a good comparison because it focuses on regions:

Playable on a unique faction in play. Any company moving through the region containing a site where the faction is playable, or through any region adjacent to this one, faces an attack. The attack is the same type as the faction and has 4 strikes with 8 prowess. The attack is detainment if the company and faction are both minion or both hero. Cannot be duplicated on a given faction. Discard when any play deck is exhausted.

The Region of Redhorn Gate contains Moria Hero, Moria Minion, and/or Moria Balrog, so there is no problem.

Resource is/is not playable at a site regardless on fact whether it may be played there or not.

No. Half-Orc are playable at protected wizardhaven.

Is there not a contradiction there? If Bree is a protected Wizardhaven for a FW player, then the Half-Orc factions are playable there. Where is the difference between that and the Hillmen? Either the version of the site matters or it does not.

[Konrad Klar]

Trouble On All Borders is not a good comparison because it focuses on regions:

Perhaps the Come at Need is a better example:

Playable if you have an ally in your hand. When this card is played, place one ally from your hand off to the side with it (the ally gives no marshalling points). The ally must be able to be attacked. If an opponent's company moves to a site where the ally is playable, it faces a single-strike attack (with no type) with the attributes of the ally, except the prowess is increased by 7. The attack is detainment if the ally and the company are both minion or both hero; and this card is discarded afterwards. If defeated, discard this card and place the ally in your opponent's marshalling point pile-he receives the ally's marshaling points as kill points. You may return the ally to your hand and discard this card during your organization phase.

Resource is/is not playable at a site regardless on fact whether it may be played there or not.

No. Half-Orc are playable at protected wizardhaven.

Is there not a contradiction there? If Bree is a protected Wizardhaven for a FW player, then the Half-Orc factions are playable there. Where is the difference between that and the Hillmen? Either the version of the site matters or it does not.

Information are normally playable at minion Bree, but not at hero Bree, because Information and non-special Items are playable as writen on a site card. Half-Orcs are not playable at Bree, only at a site of specific type. If this type changes (e.g. to ) Half-Orcs are no longer playable there (the Wild Hounds are playable now). Type of a site matters, not a version.

[Bandobras Took]

Resource is/is not playable at a site regardless on fact whether it may be played there or not.

No. Half-Orc are playable at protected wizardhaven.

Is there not a contradiction there? If Bree is a protected Wizardhaven for a FW player, then the Half-Orc factions are playable there. Where is the difference between that and the Hillmen? Either the version of the site matters or it does not.

Information are normally playable at minion Bree, but not at hero Bree, because Information and non-special Items are playable as writen on a site card. Half-Orcs are not playable at Bree, only at a site of specific type. If this type changes (e.g. to ) Half-Orcs are no longer playable there (the Wild Hounds are playable now). Type of a site matters, not a version.

Again, this is the question: at least one version of Bree is a protected Wizardhaven. Half-Orcs are playable at the Border-hold set aside by Long Grievous Siege because it is also a protected Wizardhaven unless we look strictly at the site set aside. I think the logic which says Hero Hillmen is still playable at Minion Bree also says Half-Orcs are playable there.

[Konrad Klar]

Logic in which I believe says that resources are playable at site:
a) by site's name (Hillmen, Gollum),
b) by site type (Half-Orcs, Great Bats),
c) as is written on a site card.

Only "a" is always shared by all versions of a site.
If "b" would by treated in the same way (for purposes determing of playability), then someone could make a influence attempt against the Wild Hounds at in on which Rebuild The Town or Hold Rebuilt And Repaired is played. Because opponent's version is in .

[Bandobras Took]

Okay, cool.