Old Cache

[Konrad Klar]

Playable on a company at a tapped Dark-hold , Shadow-hold , or Ruins & Lairs . During the site phase, one or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet. You may take these items from your play deck (reshuffle if used), discard pile, and/or sideboard.

Literally, the card can be played in any phase, and if played outside of site phase its effect is deferred to the site phase (if played in end-of-tur phase the effect is deferred to the site phase of next [opponent's ] turn). If deferred a player may use its effect regardless of type of company's current site.

I propose the following erratum:

Playable during the site phase on a company at a tapped Dark-hold , Shadow-hold , or Ruins & Lairs . One or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet. You may take these items from your play deck (reshuffle if used), discard pile, and/or sideboard.

[CDavis7M]

I find no basis for the premise of this proposal in the rules.

Literally, the card can be played in any phase, and if played outside of site phase its effect is deferred to the site phase (if played in end-of-tur phase the effect is deferred to the site phase of next [opponent's ] turn). If deferred a player may use its effect regardless of type of company's current site.

This interpretation has no basis in the rules. Old Cache cannot be played outside of the site phase because otherwise it would have "no effect" and be an illegal play per the rules on Legal Play of Cards. Old Cache is a short-event. The rules on Short-events are:



Old Cache does not state that a duration for its effect. Therefore, the effect "During the site phase, one or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item" is implemented immediately. If the "during the site phase" condition is not met then the effect cannot declared, causing Old Cache to have "no effect" and not be legal per "Legal Play of Cards."

[Konrad Klar]

Old Cache does not state that a duration for its effect.

Just a nonsense.
During the site phase, one or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet.

[CDavis7M]

"During the site phase" is a condition for the effect to happen. Not a "duration" for the effect. According to the rules on short-events, a "duration" would say "until the end of the site phase" or "until something."

The term "during" is not sufficient to establish a "duration" for how long the effect stays in play because the site phase is a recurring event. "During the site phase" places no limitation on the "duration" of how long the effect stays in play because the effect would stay in play for every site phase in the game.

Since Old Cache does not create a duration for the effect, the effect is implemented immediately.

[Konrad Klar]

So "during this turn", "this turn" is not duration too. As though the phrases did not include boundaries.

If an effect is that a company may take some activity during some phase AND a card that creates the effect may be played outside the phase, then the effect has duration - since beginning of the phase to the end of the phase.

[CDavis7M]

Limiting an effect to being used in a particular phase does not limit "how long it stays in play" because the phase happens every turn. If the phase is the only restriction, the effect does NOT leave play and could still be used the following turn. This is exactly what you said:

(if played in end-of-tur phase the effect is deferred to the site phase of next [opponent's ] turn

Therefore, Old Cache'd effect has no limitation on "how long it stays in play." Accordingly, it is implemented immediately and cannot be used later.

[Konrad Klar]

Therefore, Old Cache'd effect has no limitation on "how long it stays in play."

Right. It does not disappear next turn. There is next site phase in next turn.
But proposed errata removes the issue.

[CDavis7M]

Therefore, Old Cache'd effect has no limitation on "how long it stays in play."

Right. It does not disappear next turn. There is next site phase in next turn.
But proposed errata removes the issue.

But there is no issue to remove because Old Cache's effect resolves immediately. It would be an illegal play for "no effect" if it were not played during the Site Phase. The premise that "the card can be played in any phase" is invalid.

[Konrad Klar]

The premise that "the card can be played in any phase" is invalid.

No. The premise is valid.
Your objections are delusional and have been answered.

[CDavis7M]

Your objections are delusional and have been answered.

Your command of the rules and the English language has thoroughly convinced me.

[Konrad Klar]

Your objections are delusional and have been answered.

Your command of the rules and the English language has thoroughly convinced me.

Your objections are delusional and your questions have been answered.

There are some resource short-events that may be played at some point and their effect may be used later.
What you think about Come by Night Upon Them?
Even if you think that the card may be played only in site phase, can you say that:
"The first item played at the site does not tap the site."
is an effect that does not persist past resolution of the card?

[CDavis7M]

There are some resource short-events that may be played at some point and their effect may be used later.
What you think about Come by Night Upon Them?
Even if you think that the card may be played only in site phase, can you say that:
"The first item played at the site does not tap the site."
is an effect that does not persist past resolution of the card?

There is a difference between:

• Playing a short-event and implementing an effect that lasts for a specific period.
• Playing a short-event but not implementing the effect and pretending that the effect can be used later at whim.

You can't play Old Cache and then decide later whether or not you want to use the effect. The effect is implemented immediately. The effect must apply to an existing situation and the card says exactly what the situation is -- the site phase.

Come By Night doesn't have an effect that the player can just decide to use later at their whim. It's effects are implemented immediately on the Border Hold. The Border Hold is the existing situation (not the site phase). Playing an item later in the site phase does not declare the effect of Come By Night Upon Them.

[Konrad Klar]

OK.

So:

"Playable on a company at a tapped Dark-hold [-me_dh-] , Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] , or Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-] . During the site phase, one or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet."

has the same meaning as:

"Playable during the site phase on a company at a tapped Dark-hold [-me_dh-] , Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] , or Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-] . One or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet."

?

Different syntax does not matter here?

[CDavis7M]

My complaint is with wasting time over a non-issue while promoting misinterpretations of the rules that would apparently cause issues in other cards that don't actually have issues.

[Konrad Klar]

You have invested much of your energy and your time to convince others that there is no issue to fix.

So:

"Playable on a company at a tapped Dark-hold [-me_dh-] , Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] , or Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-] . During the site phase, one or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet."

has the same meaning as:

"Playable during the site phase on a company at a tapped Dark-hold [-me_dh-] , Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] , or Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-] . One or two characters in that company may each tap to take control of a non-unique, non-hoard minor item of the following type: Weapon, armor, shield, or helmet."

?

Different syntax does not matter here?