Alatar - what site is he at during the M/H Phase

[Bob654]

From Alatar's Game Text:

If in a Haven when a hazard creature is played on another company, he may join tha company and face one of the hazard creature's strikes

(This is the regular hero version, but the same question applies to the FW version too)

In which of the following situations is Alatar considered to be "in a Haven" during the Movement Hazard Phase?

a) He is at Rivendell and his company did not play a new site card face down during the Organization Phase
b) He is at Rivendell, his company played a new site card, but a different company is conducting their M/H phase before his company's new site card has been revealed
c) Alatar was somewhere else, and moved to Rivendell during his Movement Hazard Phase, and now a different company is conducting their M/H Phase

Situation A seems like obviously yes. Situation B and C are similar except this (from the URD document):

You are not “at” your site until the beginning of the Site Phase [CoE 43]. ♦ Characters which give bonuses at certain sites will not give those bonuses until the Site Phase if they move to the site that turn [CoE 67].

So if he doesn't technically "arrive" at his new site until the Site Phase, that seems like Situation C might be a no.

But for Situation B, I found this:

A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their Movement/Hazard Phase until their old site card is discarded during the same Movement/Hazard Phase.

Which would seem to suggest that Alatar is still "at" the Haven until his new site card is revealed (so could teleport to help another company moving first, Situation B). But it also somewhat contradicts the previous URD quote, since this is saying Alatar would be considered at his new site upon discarding his old site card at the end of his M/H phase (and thus would be able to teleport to help a company that moves after he does, Situation C).

What's the consensus on this...

[Theo]

(a) and (b) he is at the site. I don't know of anything contentious for those.

As you found, a company is not at their new site until the beginning of their site phase. This was a change from your last reference, which is now outdated. However, this literally has ridiculous implications for other rules, so has been intermittently questioned/contested over the years (I'm sure there are other threads active within the last couple weeks on this). That is, the ruling is unquestionable that for (c) Alatar would not be at a site, but consensus does not exist among players that this is what it should be.

[kober]

I'm curious whether the consensus on this has changed since the last post in the thread, so please allow me to rephrase the OP's question: Is a moving company considered to be at a site during any moment of a M/H Phase? If it isn't, then Alatar would be in a Haven only during scenario (a).

[Konrad Klar]

Speaking for myself.
If companies that moved to some site are not at the site until site phase, then

Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all
movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/
Darkhaven site may join at this time.

does not work.

Effect of Hall of Fire would only affect companies returned to the target Haven or companies at the Haven that did not move this turn.

Proposed solution is:
New site of moving company becomes current site of the company when M/H phase of the company is completed and the company did not take an option to move to another site. At the moment the company is considered at the site.

[kober]

Proposed solution is:
New site of moving company becomes current site of the company when M/H phase of the company is completed and the company did not take an option to move to another site. At the moment the company is considered at the site.

With such a wording, if Elrond was present in Alatar's company that is moving to Rivendell, could their controlling player draw an extra card at the end of their M/H phase?

"When Elrond is at Rivendell, his controlling player may keep one more card than normal in his hand."

[Konrad Klar]

With such a wording, if Elrond was present in Alatar's company that is moving to Rivendell, could their controlling player draw an extra card at the end of their M/H phase?

I think that no. I think that M/H phase of a company is completed when hand size of players is reconciled.

However

Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving
company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down
to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be
played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both
players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.

"and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes" literally means that they have such agreement, not that they reconciled.

But seriously. Have they a possibility to not agree?

[kober]

Okay. Now, am I wrong thinking that Konrad's proposal would mean that in all three of OP's scenarios Alatar would be considered "in a Haven"?

[Konrad Klar]

Okay. Now, am I wrong thinking that Konrad's proposal would mean that in all three of OP's scenarios Alatar would be considered "in a Haven"?

No.

[Manuel]

Most of what ICE wrote regarding the timing of the mov/haz phase is solid when there's only one company moving. E.g. the sentence "a moving company isn't at their current site until the site phase" works well with only one company, but it's true that things get complicated when there are different companies moving.

The way I've come to understand this issue with the timing of different companies moving during the same mov/haz phase is this:

From a storytelling point of view (ICE called this the "simulation") when a player has multiple companies moving, those companies are moving at the same time. E.g. if you have company A consisting of Gandalf and Frodo moving from Lorien to Rivendell, and then company B Faramir and Arwen moving from Bree to Old Forest, both companies start travelling roughly at the same time during the story that's being told in the game, i.e. Faramir and Arwen don't wait for Frodo and Gandalf to arrive to Rivendell so they can start their journey.

However, the mechanics of the game don't allow this, and that's why you have to complete one movement/hazard phase after moving on to the next. But, storywise, they're moving at the same time. And that's the reason why after resolving company A mov/haz phase, they're still not at the site while company B is resolving theirs. So, as Konrad and Theo pointed out before me, your Alatar wouldn't be at the site in situation (c) of your example.

Some players I've known say that company A is arriving, waiting, in limbo, or any other term that helps them understand and settle things. At that particular moment in time when they have already resolved their mov/haz phase but they're not in the site phase, they are not at any site, but they're not moving either. This means that if it's Galadriel moving to Lorien, she won't allow you to keep an extra card in hand until the site phase, but it also means that if a Snowstorm is played on the next mov/haz phase, she won't return to her site of origin (she's no longer through a wilderness, hence not triggering the passive condition of Snowstorm) They are just waiting for other companies to tell their stories, much as in The Two Towers when Frodo was crossing the Dead Marshes while Aragorn was fighting in Helm's Deep, but Tolkien had to complete all of the Aragorn's stuff to move on to Frodo (and thus leaving Aragorn in that kind of limbo for many pages)

Hope that helps!

[Konrad Klar]

So, as Konrad and Theo pointed out before me, your Alatar wouldn't be at the site in situation (c) of your example.

Not (quite) true.