Three or more makes sense. I also like the Dunedain theme considering the areas this card affects will tend to hit them the hardest. Perhaps option 2 or something to that effect is better. All Dunedain to hand might be overly harsh.
Something like:
Storms of Osse wrote:Permanent event Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can also be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards. The effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: All regions adjacent to coastal sea regions. Two (if Reach of Ulmo is in play): Forochel, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Anorien, Northern Rhovanian, Nurn. Three or more (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play): All Under-deeps sites (hazard creatures only) and all regions adjacent to those affected above. In addition, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites and cannot be replayed. The mind of each Dunadan is increased by 2.
Maybe The Reach of Ulmo should also be required for the effects of Two, as above, if only to encourage its participation? (we might be very need our word limit too.)
Joe your idea regarding keying where Aragorn is located is really neat!
The reason for not starring the MPs and including the minion sentence was to allow heroes to be awarded killpoints for the creature if Return of the King or Army of the Dead were not in play.
I'd also like to have seen an ongoing effect on characters in Rohan, but I don't think this is possible as a creature, unless there's additional keyability against characters in Rohan. I liked your suggestion if it were a permanent event.
Anyway, here's a changed creature version:
Ghosts (V) wrote:Creature - (6) (18/7)
Unique. Manifestation of Army of the Dead (may be played if Army of the Dead is in play). Undead. Two strikes. Cannot be played against a company with Aragorn II. May be played at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, may also be played keyed to Rohan, Lamedon, and all adjacent regions or sites within these regions, as well as any site with Aragorn II (detainment vs heroes). After the attack, each character wounded by Ghosts makes a corrruption check modified by -3. If Doors of Night is in play, any Undead creature may be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Ghosts that turn. Remove Army of the Dead from play if this creature is defeated. A minion player also receives the MPs for defeating this creature.
Edited to fix.
Last edited by Jambo on Fri May 16, 2008 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
I would leave out the sentence about MP for minions and add that the creature is detainment vs hero outside of Vale of Erech and Dunharrow. You would think Aragorn has enough sense and can control the Undead Army sufficiently not to slaughter other good guys. As detainment vs heroes it can still be annoying enough, but it is only supposed to be deadly vs minions.
Would the Pukel-Deeps be a probable third site for the Army to live?
Oops forgot the detainment clause. Well spotted Leon. The Pukel-deeps site already allows for any Undead to be played there, so that's already covered by the site card.
Edit: there's an issue with the Doors of Night clause and other Undead creatures. One might see the situation where Ghosts is detainment while subsequent undead attacks are not... this will need some thought, if we want to keep it.
I also like the Reach of Ulmo requirement for stage Two, to make it see play, but also to counter too big effect of this strat. combined with Great Ship. Cool as might be, to go around Northern Rhovanion with a great ship is just not right. If opponent can't Twilight the Storms he's screwed in terms of defense, but with Great Ship his offense might be screwed as well. RoU counters that. Also you get a chance to Marvel RoU and thus prevent the 2nd/3rd effect, without Storms being out of play.
Some Dunadan effect is nice, but to hand effect is too big. The idea to discard Dunadan strongholds is really nice, but effect is also big, and aren't Gondor decks punished enough by this card? If you discard the mentioned places for being Dunadan-founded, you should also discard a whole bunch of other places (Gobel Mirlond, Stones, Lond Galen, Lond Daer, Henneth Anun, Amon Hen, Tharbad, Ruined Tower). Maybe just tap the places? Then you can still let the Faithful King Return. But that would take some of the drowning of Numenor aspect, which is very nice. I don't like the mind increase very much. There is already Dimineshed, and combined with that it potentially has the same effect as bring dunadan to hand, if opponent plays many dunadan. But also I don't understand it thematically.
Maybe we can make dunadan effect on another card, not to cramp it, and as sideboard effect: Drowning Seas: if 2 Storms of Osse and Reach of Ulmo are in play, each Dunadan must make roll (if wounded and/or a magic user -2), if result bigger than cp's + 5, discard character. This would reflect Dunadan belonging to the Faithfull or not.
I'm thinking maybe the list of regions is a bit too big. As it is, only Udun and Morgul Vale are safe. I think the mountains should be excluded, themewise but also because they are dangerous enough. So Northern Rhovanion/Anduin Vales/Wold are best off the list. These will be flooded with the 3rd anyway, but they won't flood High Pass/Withered Heath/Redhorn Gap/Iron Hills at least. It makes the whole north-east corner safe, but that's where dragon's roam. It's a pitty Mirkwood can't be flooded then. We can always just say: any region except...
As far as the Ghosts, I don't like the ambiguity in it being the Army and yet not being the Army. I'd rather make it a manifestation that can also be played as creature if Army is in play, but only in region/adjacent where Aragorn is. I don't like the idea of Ghosts just attacking with Sleepless Malice at all, unless at specific sites. Not at Hermits Hill for crying out loud! So I prefer Joe's direction, as a perm./creature, that has an effect on Rohan/Lamedon, creates an attack at Vale/Dunharrow, and can be played as creature with Aragorn.
As effect, I prefer the influence modifier Jambo suggested (also muster/threats can't be used!), or maybe even make each man faction there worth less mps (cowards!). Or characters with home site being there must make cc's (many Rohirrim gave in to the attraction of entering the paths).
edit: ah I see you made it a manifestation, while I was typing this. Good!
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Thorsten, you cannot go around Northern Rhovanian in a great ship. The effects of Storms of Osse are only applicable to hazards.
Regarding Ghosts, here's a few more versions for consideration:
Ghosts wrote:Creature - (6) (18/7)
Unique. Manifestation of Army of the Dead (may be played if Army of the Dead is in play). Undead. Two strikes. Cannot be played against a company with Aragorn II. May be played at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, may also be played keyed to the same region or any adjacent region to Aragorn II and at sites in those regions (detainment against heroes). After the attack, each character wounded by Ghosts makes a corruption check modified by -3. If Doors of Night is in play, any Undead creature may be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Ghosts that turn (detainment if attack from Ghosts was detainment). Remove Army of the Dead from play if this creature is defeated. A minion player also receives the MPs for defeating this creature.
If you want to avoid the Sleepless Malice could one add “only” to “May only be played at Dunhar…”?
Here’s a permanent-event variety:
Ghosts wrote:Permanent-event - (6) (18/7)
Unique. Manifestation of Army of the Dead (may be played if Army of the Dead is in play). Dunharrow, The Pukel-deeps and Vale of Erech receive an additional automatic attack: Undead –- 2 strikes at 18/7. If Doors of Night is in play, any Undead creature may be played (not counting against the hazard limit) at these sites, and all influence attempts in Rohan and Lamedon are modified by -3 and cannot be done with Muster.
If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, Ghosts may attack from permanent-event state: Undead –2 strikes at 18/7. The attack may be keyed to the same region or any adjacent region to Aragorn II and to sites in those regions (detainment against heroes). Discard after such an attack.
Each character wounded by Ghosts makes a corruption check after the attack modified by -3. All attacks from this card are automatically cancelled on a company containing Aragorn II. Remove Army of the Dead from play if an attack is defeated. A minion player can also receive the MPs for defeating an attack.
Last edited by Jambo on Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really like your last version of Ghosts, Jambo. If it is a permanent event you circumvent any trouble with playing the undead at other locations. I do not know if you want the influence effects as well as undead attacks, but that is probably something for play-testing.
Only hazards? good point! But why actually? because of this (Great Ship, Fair Sailing, or because of Nenselde?) In fact it's a bit strange, that regions change only for hazards.
so what about the extension of the card?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Slightly changed the order around so as to avoid mountainous regions flooding.
Storms of Osse wrote:Permanent event Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can also be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards. The effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: All regions adjacent to coastal sea regions. Two (if Reach of Ulmo is in play): All regions adjacent to those affected above. Three or more (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play): All Under-deeps sites (hazard creatures only) and Forochel, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Northern Rhovanian and Nurn. In addition, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites and cannot be replayed. The mind of each Dunadan is increased by 2.
about ghosts, excellent idea to make it playable bear aragorn... I still prefer the creature version... I don't want another half creature for a dump and run deck... An entire creature is nice when building a deck that needs his 12
I expect Ghosts V to be in a sideboard for most of the game, the effects should not be wide enough to have it in your deck immediately. The last versions suggested are not half creature, but only event.
aren't all that unique "defeatable" events that creates automatic attacks at sites considered as a half creature?
Balrog of moria
All at homes
All spawns from balrog set...
Yes, they are considered half-creatures for deck construction, and so would this one. The event is not a creature though, because it can't be played as a creature. Perhaps it should be however.
The only thing I don’t like about Storms now is that before there was this cool narrative to it: first the storms rise and cover their coasts, THEN the areas where there are lakes or rivers rise and overfill (seriously, you can just look at the terrain map!), THEN everything else is so full, that it spreads further inland (on the 3rd storm). Also, Anduin Vales is not a mountain region is it? To quote Wikipedia, “In geography a vale is a wide river valley, usually with a particularly wide flood plain or flat valley bottom.”
But I do like the idea of the mountains being immune. I don’t suppose there’s any way to keep the old order but have mountains be unaffected? Oh well… or at least the Anduin Values hit early? This is such a safe area for heroes normally; it would be nice to have it on round 2 of the storms.
I haven’t seen a lot of pure or even heavy Dunadan decks (usually 3 tops; Aragorn, Faramir or Beretar, and a squatting one mind sage). Let’s keep in mind that the apocalypse will happen near the end of a game. If opponent exhausts fast enough, he’ll even discard Ulmo. When the last effect does happen, Dunadan are not likely to have their mind increased for more than one or two turns, and the effect will probably be that the affected player must discard one character (to free up GI), though well-timed hazards the moment of the apocalypse (muster disperses) can hurt.
Also, is discarding these freeholds really that punishing to a hero player? It simply means you can’t squat at Minas Tirith, and if you’re trying to become King, you have to hurry up and do it before all hell breaks lose. Or… you simply exhaust first and get rid of the triple Storms. I think this would work fine.
I DO like Thorsten’s idea of a separate Drowning Seas card that has an extra Dunedain punishment effect, though I’d like this to be in addition to the freeholds getting nailed (but we could eliminate the mind +2 line in this case). Drowning Seas (V) has a very cool “temptation” aspect to it; in fact, the CC negative should be greater for minion dunadan!
But why actually? because of this (Great Ship, Fair Sailing, or because of Nenselde?) In fact it's a bit strange, that regions change only for hazards.